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roughly 17 hours ago

I've been working to get more involved with, eg, mutual aid groups and other forms of local capacity and resiliency building over the last year - one thing that's stuck out to me is how many of these groups' public face is an Instagram site. That might not have been existential a couple years ago, but given what we're seeing now with, for instance, Paramount making a rival bid for Warner based solely on their coziness with the current administration, it doesn't feel like the corporate media ecosystem is going to be an even "squint and you can kind of pretend" neutral territory for organizing and information dissemination going forward.

For all that tools like PeerTube, Mastodon, etc are clunkier and more limited than things like YouTube, Bluesky, etc, I think that argument is increasingly going to be irrelevant to their value - we need to start ensuring our capacity to go from 0-1 on media distribution, not from 10-100 or 100+.

TulliusCicero 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> For all that tools like PeerTube, Mastodon, etc are clunkier and more limited than things like YouTube, Bluesky, etc, I think that argument is increasingly going to be irrelevant to their value

Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them.

Technically proficient people may overlook something being clunky if it suits their needs in other ways, but it's a harder sell for the average user. And really, it shouldn't be an issue. Good UX isn't trivial, but it's not especially complicated or budget-busting either.

petterroea 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Users are also happy with clunkiness if it gives them other things they value. Ask any Windows user. Also, video game modding.

My general experience is that clunky software is what made people tech literate, and now that everything has safety barriers and protects the user from everything tech literacy has fallen.

mdotmertens an hour ago | parent | next [-]

This is acceptable. We now understand that privacy-focused solutions are not appropriate for individuals with average technological literacy, and we cannot depend on companies to self-regulate.

At present, the emphasis is on the potential of large language models (LLMs) and the related ethical considerations. However, I would prefer to address the necessity for governments or commissions to assume responsibility for their citizens concerning "social" media, as this presents a significantly greater risk than any emerging technology.

cons0le an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Windows is also just convenience. Most use it because it comes with the computer

jszymborski 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are some technical barriers to approaching fediverse platforms, but I personally see the main barriers being cultural.

I'm a big proponent of Mastodon and still love using it, but the culture (especially early on) was exceptionally protectionist and lots of people got bullied off for very silly reasons. I think the attitude is less like a children's secret club and more chill generally.

All this to say, I think this is will get better, but the best way to help the fediverse is to join it, be active, and be chill.

treyd 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At least for Mastodon and the rest of the Fediverse ecosystem it does seem that people actually want to use them, and more people every day.

jamesbelchamber 14 hours ago | parent [-]

People moved on from Mastodon to Bluesky because it was more responsive to user needs. I encouraged people to move to Mastodon but then watched them move on.

It is what it is - but it's worth being clear-eyed about what it is.

7moritz7 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

FOSS just does not have the aggressive scaling mindset. Even success stories like Linux' game compatibility and Chromium can be traced to just regular tech companies, as opposed to non profits.

jmcnulty 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It has actually improved a lot since then. The UI has had changes, search is better, it has quote posts now. More usability enhancements are under active development.

palata 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Once "normies" have tried and moved away, I think it's too late. Unfortunately such services don't get a second chance.

It was probably hard enough to convince them to try once.

JoshTriplett 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> search is better

Search is still awful, in part because a few people don't seem to want it. It needs substantial improvement.

MangoToupe 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them

Nobody really wants to use instagram either—there's basically nothing positive to say about the app or service itself—it just has critical mass.

warkdarrior 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Is this a "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded" moment?

MangoToupe 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Typically crowds don't shove billboards every third person

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

More like texting, nobody likes the phone system, but everyone you know is on it

MiddleEndian 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

When texting took off, it was the easiest (only) way to send instant text based messages between friends wherever you were, even if the phone system is now heavily used by spammers and there are better options.

When Facebook took off, every Myspace page was so full of garbage that they barely loaded on most people's computers, and Facebook was slick and shiny and easy. The real name policy made it super easy to connect with people you met IRL. Even if it's now confusingly slow and FB Messenger can't display your recent chats in the correct order for some reason, it was the easiest most obvious option at the time.

I don't really understand why people use Twitter (at its best it just seems like a worse version of RSS), but the site presumably loaded quickly at some point and was easy to use, even if it's presumably worse now.

And so on. They persist through momentum.

Some things continue to persist, some things get beat out and die. But if you start off more confusing than your alternatives, at least compared to when they started, you won't get picked up in the first place.

MangoToupe 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Instagram makes texting look positively motherly

api 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To me a fatal flaw in ActivityPub systems is that your identity is tied to a server. Yes you can port it, but it’s a hassle. That means the server ops become these little lords over little fiefdoms and a server just dying takes your identity with it.

This also means your reach and what you see depends on your choice of server. I very much don’t want that.

It’s also confusing to non-technical people. Join Mastodon! But which one? How do I pick one?

Technically speaking, Nostr is better. Your identity is a key. Servers are just dumb relays.

Unfortunately it seems to be nothing but crypto bros talking about crypto, or was last time I checked. Nobody uses it.

nunobrito 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just to say that I'm using NOSTR on my apps, most people using those apps don't even know about NOSTR at all but they all enjoy the quick login procedure without emails nor phones.

fsflover 16 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> To me a fatal flaw in ActivityPub systems is that your identity is tied to a server

In contrast to Instagram, Facebook and co?

ezst 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> That means the server ops become these little lords over little fiefdoms and a server just dying takes your identity with it.

Or that means that everyone can be their own little lord reigning over their own little server, to the point that it doesn't matter, because effectively, network nodes don't need to be "big" to be relevant in a federated ecosystem. I'm not so much into ActivityPub, but I run an XMPP server for my family. I'm not saying that this is for everyone, but close-enough.

RobotToaster 4 hours ago | parent [-]

>everyone can be their own little lord reigning over their own little serve

Only if it's simple for the average person

And only until an admin of a big sever dislikes something you say and adds your server to the censorship list on fediseer.

__MatrixMan__ 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Agreed, nostr makes a lot of sense when you read about it and then you go there... Once.

immibis 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is that everyone is reading Instagram.

I don't understand why. I made an account recently in order to access a specific thing. I can confirm the app is 100% pure garbage. The home feed is garbage and navigation is awful (to keep you on the home feed). I uninstalled it after they were caught bypassing the permission system to spy on you, by binding localhost ports that web ads would access. The web app is no better garbage-wise (but it can't bind ports).

And it's the subcultures that you'd expect to be the most untied from corporate shackles, that are the ones most on Instagram. I don't get it.

charcircuit 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>bypassing the permission system

On Android you can't make a network service permissioned. And when you make a binder service permissioned it's up to the app itself to specify with what permission a caller needs in order to be able to use the service, or the service can choose to be unpermissioned. Either way apps on Android are free to host unpermissioned services that other apps on the system connect to. Chrome connecting to such a service did not have to bypass a permission since there was no permission protecting it.

immibis an hour ago | parent [-]

What they were caught doing was opening some local port via TCP sockets (let's say localhost:9000) and then advertisements would connect to localhost:9000 to add themselves to your advertising profile even if you were in a private browser, had cookies blocked, or anything like that. Both Facebook and Instagram apps were caught doing it. Now, if they were formally caught by the legal system, they'd go to prison (,in countries other than the USA) so as soon as it made front page HN, they removed it from the apps.

charcircuit 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

>even if you were in a private browser

Incognito mode is about not saving data or browser history to your computer. Sites can still identify you if you login or even just from your IP. It's not meant to make you anonymous. This is a common misconception which is why these modes show a big warning explaination when you enable them.

>they'd go to prison

That's for the courts to decide. The Facebook and Instagram apps may have already gotten consent from the user to share this information.

roughly 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's two aspects - one is that Insta started out as the "not-facebook" platform and Meta's somehow managed not to fuck that up, and the other is there's a massive network effect - every tattoo artist, venue, and band are on instagram now, and it all becomes very self-reinforcing.

stephen_g 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They're trying... They finally released a native iPad version of the app this year (after so many years), and its default pane is not the one that includes people you actually follow (like the phone app) - it's just reels, and you have to go looking for the right page in the menu to see anything from people you care about.

It's very revealing about where they wish they could have taken the app already, where you don't follow anyone, just trust the algorithm to force-feed you content. Doing that too quickly would instantly kill it, so it's been years of boiling the frog.

The 'Snooze suggested content in feed for 30 days' thing is already bad enough, if they stopped letting you do that Instagram would be insufferable to use.

13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
timeon 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Meta's somehow managed not to fuck that up

But then they fucked up. Several years ago.

ipaddr 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Instagram is useless unless their are people you want to follow or get people to follow you.

MichaelZuo 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

By definition someone’s actions, if repeated sufficiently often, define their real character.

You don’t have to take claimed pretenses seriously.

roughly 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is a bit of a harsh take. These same groups use Signal for all their internal messaging - by and large the will is there, but they're not tech savvy and we haven't given them viable alternatives.

MichaelZuo an hour ago | parent [-]

People can have multiple facets of character? Or do you think that’s not even possible?

fsflover 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

alisonatwork 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This situation is so frustrating to me, and despite my attempts, nobody seems to get why it's problematic. I still have a Facebook account from over a decade ago that I use occasionally to access stuff that is only visible on Facebook, but by the time Insta kicked off I had already decided social media was bad, so I never got one, and it didn't seem like a great loss because I wasn't that interested in looking at other people's photos anyway.

Except now, apparently - and I'm still not exactly sure how - business owners and activist groups and event promoters communicate everything about what is going on via... photos?! I suppose it's the digital version of flyers, except you could see flyers posted up all over town, in all the record stores or cafes you already frequented, friends could hand you them when they saw you out and about, you'd get bombarded with them when you left related events... And none of those situations forced you to enter a heavily-surveilled gated community owned by a spectacularly wealthy foreign company notorious for enabling genocide, live streaming murder etc.

I was at some event a couple weekends ago and an organizer came up to me saying that there was going to be an after and just check the Insta for the address, and I'm like... But I don't have that? Can't you tell me now? And because the site is login-walled even when at some point later in the day the thumbnail did appear, trying to click on it to see the details resulted in the login block and so I missed out.

But I am well aware that I am a teeny tiny minority of people involved in this boycot and so I'm only really hurting myself. The way I've heard it described by activists is that using Insta (or X or YouTube) is like tacitly accepting that we already live in a panopticon and thus all resistance has to take place within full view of the authorities, it just needs to be smart and present itself as something that isn't actually resistance, or that works around censorship using codewords, or this, or that, "just like how it's done in China". And it's like, great, the new generation of western activists who actually still live in a society which grants them some civil liberties have decided they're all doomed to exist under the totalitarian jackboot and practice their resistance accordingly. After all, you can't build a movement out there on the actually free fediverse or the small web where there's only a smattering of nerds.

I don't know if I should be depressed or just suck it up and get that stupid Insta account.

duskdozer 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's depressing to me at least. I guess with things like this it works well if you fully buy in and don't understand or care about the privacy violations and psychological tricks they use. But even if I tried to ignore it, I just end up annoyed by the interfaces or workflows or stuff like that. I guess it's just the curse of having really non-standard preferences

Dusseldorf 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm on the same boat as you. Trying to find word about where the good local popup restaurants are, and apparently the only way to do it is to follow a bunch of random Instagram accounts. I finally tried to relent and make an account just to be able to read that stuff, but they wanted me to take a video of myself holding my government ID in order to prove my... identity, I guess? Not sure why that's necessary for an account I never even plan to post with, but it was enough of a barrier for me that I said nevermind. Now I just mention it whenever I'm chatting with organizers/proprietors, but I'm never exactly sure what to suggest as an alternative.

wrxd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a workaround, next time someone forces you to use Instagram go to https://flufi.me/ to see public content without logging in.

It’s not the solution but I cannot get other people to stop posting on proprietary platforms

duskdozer 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>flufi.me

Naturally, gated by whatever Cloudflare setting it is that doesn't just block me but runs a CPU to 100% indefinitely unless I kill the tab

alex1138 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Facebook simultaneously makes it hard for you to access anything without an account (connecting the world?) while also having been known to change people's privacy settings from Friends to Friends of Friends or Public

Zuck, you do not deserve to be spoken of in the same breath as actual internet pioneers