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EGreg 2 days ago

I'd even go so far as to say that shareholding in PUBLICLY TRADED companies is one of the primary engines of enshittification. Shareholders want to extract rents from the ecosystem, full stop. And if the CEO isn't sociopathic enough about it, they’ll replace them with one who is. Everyone who buys shares at price X wants to sell at >X, forever. That incentive structure alone guarantees a race to the bottom.

How to fix it: let shareholders be gradually bought out—much as slaveholders in Europe were—by (gasp) utility tokenholders. Think Shares in Disney Corp vs Disney Dollars. You transition from extractive shareholders to people who actually use and depend on the ecosystem. That eliminates the parasitic shareholder class that drives most of late-stage capitalist enshittification, rent extraction, and negative externalities.

For clarity, here are just some of those externalities that flow directly from quarterly-earnings-driven incentives:

  destruction of ecosystems
  deforestation and rainforest loss
  collapse of fisheries and ocean systems
  factory farming / industrialized animal suffering
  desertification of farmland
  strip mining and toxic waste dumping
  privatization and depletion of freshwater
  carbon emissions and climate destabilization
  environmental injustice and poisoning of local communities
  lobbying to block regulation and accountability
  social media addiction design for engagement metrics
  monopolization and killing off smaller competitors
  offshoring, wage stagnation, and worker precarity
  financialization of everything (housing, healthcare, education)
  political capture to preserve the whole machine
This is not some random accident, this is the inevitable equilibrium of shareholder primacy.

The entire model of late-stage shareholding is flawed. Corporations exist because governments grant them charters. Government sets the rules for how shares work—and can change those rules. Buying shares is not like buying bonds. Shares are residual claims with far higher risk. So we can absolutely add another risk: that shareholders may be gradually bought out and the institution wound down, the same way the FDR administration forced private gold holders into a buyout under the Gold Reserve Act.

That was far more authoritarian, because gold is a physical asset you own in self-custody. Shares, on the other hand, only exist because a third-party company continues to operate in ways that profit you. That dependency already implies higher risk. Therefore, we can add the additional risk of a structured, government-mandated transition away from extractive shareholder capitalism—just like Europe did when ending slavery. And let's be honest: late-stage financialized shareholding has been a blight on the planet.

And none of this is historically radical. Before the modern era, the idea that shareholders should dominate everything simply didn’t exist.

Pre-1960s:For much of the 20th century, a broader "stakeholder theory" was the norm. Management balanced employees, customers, suppliers, and communities—not just shareholders.

1960s:The turn began with Milton Friedman’s argument that a company’s only responsibility is maximizing shareholder profits (1970 NYT Magazine). 1980s:Shareholder primacy took over.

  Hostile takeovers forced boards into short-termism.
  Executive compensation was tied tightly to stock price.
  Financialization embedded all of this into corporate DNA.
Shareholders were not always in control. Their dominance "waxed and waned," and the current form of shareholder primacy is a late-20th-century financial ideology posing as an eternal law of nature.

If that ideology got us enshittification, ecological collapse, and a sociopathic corporate culture, then yes, we can fix it the same way other harmful institutions were fixed: buy the incumbents out and transition to a saner governance model.

maest 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

While I get your frustration, the root cause of the issue is not shareholder value maximisation, it's the failure modes of the free market.

Monopolies, lack of transparency, lack of competition, regulatory capture, failure to price in externalities are what allows this to happen.

And these failure modes are allowed to persist due to lobbying, normalised corruption, and the desire for a small/weak government.

The latter is useful for corporations, as it limits regulation, which is the main way these failure modes are supposed to be managed. Yes, too much/bad regulation is detrimental, but so is no/weak regulation.

The more baffling thing is that the modal American voter supports lax regulation and pro-corporate rules at their own personal expense.

addicted 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm curious what you think VCs, etc. who are investing in all these private companies want to do?

The only difference with public companies is we actually have data about their finances.

The private companies are doing it all under wraps.

raw_anon_1111 2 days ago | parent [-]

Don’t conflate two different investment models.

1. Investors who want to invest in companies with a growth story and want the company to grow bigger and be “successful” enough to exit either via an acquisition or the public market. But often times these days, just to pawn off to the greater fool.

https://medium.com/@Arakunrin/the-post-ipo-performance-of-y-...

2. Investors who want to go in and make the company worse and do enough value extraction for short term gains. The canonical case is when a restaurant chain owns its own real estate. They split off the restaurant from the underlying real estate and make the restaurant pay rent that goes up. The restaurant flounders and the real estate holdings increase in value.

And another strategy is to acquire companies in your vertical, roll them all up, fire redundant staff and integrate systems and then exit. Of course you enshitify the smaller once independent mom and pop systems in the process.

spockz 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

We can still have shares and pay out dividend. Then when you want to sell your shares they are like a fixed price?

EGreg 2 days ago | parent [-]

There can be many models. One model is just to have shares expire after a certain point, the same way options do. Or undergo demurrage (a discount that grows from 0 to 100% over a decade, for instance, where the remaining % from the sale goes back to the ecosystem and is distributed as UBI to all tokenholders).

In fact, staking your shares and getting a perpetual flow of utility tokens, or selling the shares, could be a good compromise. But the shares would cease to confer voting power or dividends. The dividends would be paid out in the utility token itself. So the utility tokens might get devalued if there are too many of them, or they could be burned as transaction fees for instance, reducing their supply. There are a ton of possibilities.

Reinterpreting shares as something like a bond with a yield in the ecosystem's own currency makes things much more sustainable. Yes, the shareholders would still want the ecosystem's growth to outpace the token issuance, but also, they could just increase the fees' burn rate of tokens. But that's like extracting rents. So yes, I think eventually, shares should simply get less and less dividends over time. Look at the Miracle of Worgl and their currency undergoing demurrage, for instance.

In the ideal scenario, though, new companies would have no IPO ever, only ICO of utility tokens. Just make IPOs almost impossible to do from a regulatory point of view. It's becoming rare anyway. This would mean that early shareholders would get their returns by staking shares and receiving utility tokens which they sell to ecosystem participants (so they're incentivized to help grow the entire ecosystem, refer new customers etc.) And eventually, the market cap of the shares is totally phased out due to demurrage and the utility tokens is all that remains.

spockz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Or perhaps we go one step further by making shareholders also owners. They get to take their part (as determined by the amount of shares they possess) of the profits and equally have to cough up their part of the losses.

This would return closer to the model where you invest into a business because you believe in it.

salawat 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Stop trying to reimagine stocks as crypto to try to justify a failed attempt at manifesting a problem that cryptocurrency can attempt to be a solution to.

EGreg 2 days ago | parent [-]

Stop hating on crypto just because you're on HN, and consider that actual problems have grown very large with current systems. This is the problem with many HN denizens -- they keep correctly posting about problems, but then dismiss solutions out of hand because they're against the groupthink. Then 10 years later the problem is worse, but you get triggered by the word "cryptocurrency" (which by the way I didn't even say).

As a result, you totally ignore the very real problems that get bigger and bigger due to late-stage shareholder capitalism, and call it a "failed attempt to manifest" the problems.

salawat 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm not saying this out of groupthink. If you just change the word "stocks" to "token", and don't change the fundamentals of ownership of "stocks" being basically indicated by entries in the ledger of an asset tracking company, that provides a foundation for conducting trades for financial gains at the stroke of a pen you've accomplished nothing. In the transformation to tracking the same damn thing with a block chain or crypto token, if you're providing the same abstractive benefits, you've got nothing but a change in detail, but not in kind. Tokens will be traded on info or trends as monied interest recognizes value to be squeezed out of the fact of owning a share, having voting rights/influence on operations, or claim to a flow of future value. Same shit, different wrapper, it's just a token now, and we're blowing eith bookoo power doing PoW, or creating more centralization through PoS, to process transactions that were previously accomplished with an entry in one of a handful of company's databases, and some paperwork.

So if you want to sell tokenization as not being stocks/shares by another name, tell me how you're changing the fundamentals. I buy into ventures to say, get dividends, or knowing I'll lose money, but hoping to see something manifest that I want to see that may not be profitable yet, but I want to be a part of. How does your change to tokens differ at all, from me buying shares of stock?

If you can't provide an answer to that, I continue to stand by my original statement. Unless, of course, you're being a proponent of a public database of beneficial ownership of all legal fictions. In which case you might get some interest out of me, but I guarantee you'll run into other forms of Dead on Arrival until you fix/address the whole problem around said database basically provides a map for targeting all of the top centralizations of capital, which none of those individuals will probably be okay with being the case to the degree it will be prevented through buying out political clout.

philipallstar 2 days ago | parent [-]

Thinking it's a good idea to abolish private ownership because of the most pathological cases is probably sawing off the branch you're sitting that keeps you away from socialism and mass starvation policies.