We can still have shares and pay out dividend. Then when you want to sell your shares they are like a fixed price?

There can be many models. One model is just to have shares expire after a certain point, the same way options do. Or undergo demurrage (a discount that grows from 0 to 100% over a decade, for instance, where the remaining % from the sale goes back to the ecosystem and is distributed as UBI to all tokenholders).

In fact, staking your shares and getting a perpetual flow of utility tokens, or selling the shares, could be a good compromise. But the shares would cease to confer voting power or dividends. The dividends would be paid out in the utility token itself. So the utility tokens might get devalued if there are too many of them, or they could be burned as transaction fees for instance, reducing their supply. There are a ton of possibilities.

Reinterpreting shares as something like a bond with a yield in the ecosystem's own currency makes things much more sustainable. Yes, the shareholders would still want the ecosystem's growth to outpace the token issuance, but also, they could just increase the fees' burn rate of tokens. But that's like extracting rents. So yes, I think eventually, shares should simply get less and less dividends over time. Look at the Miracle of Worgl and their currency undergoing demurrage, for instance.

In the ideal scenario, though, new companies would have no IPO ever, only ICO of utility tokens. Just make IPOs almost impossible to do from a regulatory point of view. It's becoming rare anyway. This would mean that early shareholders would get their returns by staking shares and receiving utility tokens which they sell to ecosystem participants (so they're incentivized to help grow the entire ecosystem, refer new customers etc.) And eventually, the market cap of the shares is totally phased out due to demurrage and the utility tokens is all that remains.

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spockz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Or perhaps we go one step further by making shareholders also owners. They get to take their part (as determined by the amount of shares they possess) of the profits and equally have to cough up their part of the losses.

This would return closer to the model where you invest into a business because you believe in it.

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salawat 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Stop trying to reimagine stocks as crypto to try to justify a failed attempt at manifesting a problem that cryptocurrency can attempt to be a solution to.

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EGreg 2 days ago | parent [-]

Stop hating on crypto just because you're on HN, and consider that actual problems have grown very large with current systems. This is the problem with many HN denizens -- they keep correctly posting about problems, but then dismiss solutions out of hand because they're against the groupthink. Then 10 years later the problem is worse, but you get triggered by the word "cryptocurrency" (which by the way I didn't even say).

As a result, you totally ignore the very real problems that get bigger and bigger due to late-stage shareholder capitalism, and call it a "failed attempt to manifest" the problems.

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salawat 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm not saying this out of groupthink. If you just change the word "stocks" to "token", and don't change the fundamentals of ownership of "stocks" being basically indicated by entries in the ledger of an asset tracking company, that provides a foundation for conducting trades for financial gains at the stroke of a pen you've accomplished nothing. In the transformation to tracking the same damn thing with a block chain or crypto token, if you're providing the same abstractive benefits, you've got nothing but a change in detail, but not in kind. Tokens will be traded on info or trends as monied interest recognizes value to be squeezed out of the fact of owning a share, having voting rights/influence on operations, or claim to a flow of future value. Same shit, different wrapper, it's just a token now, and we're blowing eith bookoo power doing PoW, or creating more centralization through PoS, to process transactions that were previously accomplished with an entry in one of a handful of company's databases, and some paperwork.

So if you want to sell tokenization as not being stocks/shares by another name, tell me how you're changing the fundamentals. I buy into ventures to say, get dividends, or knowing I'll lose money, but hoping to see something manifest that I want to see that may not be profitable yet, but I want to be a part of. How does your change to tokens differ at all, from me buying shares of stock?

If you can't provide an answer to that, I continue to stand by my original statement. Unless, of course, you're being a proponent of a public database of beneficial ownership of all legal fictions. In which case you might get some interest out of me, but I guarantee you'll run into other forms of Dead on Arrival until you fix/address the whole problem around said database basically provides a map for targeting all of the top centralizations of capital, which none of those individuals will probably be okay with being the case to the degree it will be prevented through buying out political clout.

	▲	philipallstar 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Thinking it's a good idea to abolish private ownership because of the most pathological cases is probably sawing off the branch you're sitting that keeps you away from socialism and mass starvation policies.