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jillesvangurp 3 days ago

Here's some back of the envelope math for batteries and ships:

- Weight is less of a limitation than you would think. Ship size is measured in tonnage. 40K-60K is a medium sized cargo carrying ship. So lets assume a ship like that.

- Battery weight calculations are going to be key. If you assume 170 wh/kg, 6 tonnes of battery equals about 1 mwh of battery.

- Energy usage of ships is speed dependent and it's a non linear relationship. You can save a lot of energy by going a bit slower. Going about 15 knots, a ship like this might use 15mw of power.

So the math becomes something like 6 x 15 = 90 tons of battery per hour. 5000km is about 2700 nautical miles (1 knot == 1 nautical mile/hour). So, you need about 180 hours of battery. Or about 16200 tons for a total of 15mwh x 180 = 2.7gwh of energy. That's a big battery.

The real limitation here comes from the cost of the batteries, which is dropping fast with sodium ion. The reason CATL is bringing this up is because they've been doing similar math with some informed $/kwh math. If they can get it down to around 20$/kwh, a mwh would cost 20K, and a gwh would cost 20M. So the battery would cost 54M$.

The key here is that this is still assuming 15knots. Energy usage might drop considerably if you drop it to 10 knots or even lower. You might only need 7200 tons of battery at those speeds.

The ship can handle the weight either way, though you are sacrificing useful load of course. The real constraints here are cost and speed. You pay a fat premium for a fast ship. Of course ships this size aren't cheap. A few tens of millions is normal. And they burn through many millions worth of fuel per year too. So, even though that amount of battery is expensive, the math might actually work out to these ships being cheap enough to operate that they'd earn back their battery.

You'd have to be pretty bullish about cost and performance of batteries. But CATL clearly feels that way. They have several battery chemistries at their disposal with higher densities (and cost). Over time, batteries might get cheaper and more dense. Ship designs might be optimized for batteries (e.g. structural hulls with battery). There's a lot of wiggle room here. But it's not an impossible proposition.

adverbly 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Those are some big numbers. It makes me think of a crazy thought experiment:

How many MW could a container ship carry by literally shipping energy stored in batteries?

As in they fill up entirely with batteries, sail to a desert, plug into a cable to charge on cheap solar, charge up, sail to a population center, plug in to discharge. Repeat.

SPICLK2 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's easy to work out from the parent comment. They conclude that 16,000 tons of batteries are needed for propulsion, with a total capacity of 3GWh.

For a typical 40kton cargo ship, that leaves 24,000 tons for more batteries, for a energy cargo capacity of 4.5GWh. The average US citizen uses ~770,000 BTUs of energy per day, or 0.23MWh. This "energy cargo" of this ship would provide the entire energy needs of a city of 20k people for one day. (I am being a little unfair, by assuming that everyone uses electricity for all of their energy needs in this scenario).

eigart 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A japanese startup is working on a (surprisingly small) battery energy "tanker":

https://power-x.jp/en/newsroom/Introducing-the-world%E2%80%9...

I think there are some startups working on cargo train "tankers" in the US too.

An idea I had after seeing the tanker concept was to have the battery carrier also serve as a generator via wind power. If its a huge ship I suppose you could just stick a turbine on it and go where the wind is blowing. I think a more fun concept is generating power off of a smaller scale cat- or trimaran generating both propulsion and power by sailing conventionally.

edgineer a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ha, that's like the quote: "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway."

htrp 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Panamax ship is 5000 teu (twenty foot shipping container equivalent)

I think you get about 4 MWh per TEU ( based on my 12V 100Ah battery)

so about 20 GWh

SPICLK2 2 days ago | parent [-]

At 170Wh per kg (and ignoring the weight of the containers and any safety considerations), 20GWh of lithium battery would weigh 120,000 tons. This is a lot more than a typical Panamax DWT of 60,000 tons, which also needs to include the ship's fuel, provisions, crew, etc.

gorgoiler 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If your average solar array gives 2.5MW per hectare then 15MW would require 6 x 100m x 100m to run, or a beam of 150m for a 400m long vessel (eg Evergreen G-class.)

That’s only ~4x wider than the current big classes of ship. Maybe we will see twin hulls with a solar field slung in between?

The downside of course is you can no longer romantically sail by starlight (or at least, technically, by the starlight of non-Sol stars.)

blacksmith_tb 3 days ago | parent [-]

Though a smaller array (just covering the deck of a current ship) could provide some boost - 25% isn't nothing, though you need clear skies to net that, I suppose we could consider a system when the ship would make a journey more slowly, stopping to charge for four days, sailing for one (though I assume drifting means you can't really "stop" entirely so that's not entirely practical).

pzo 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think another problem is how fast you will be able to charge such a huge battery and how expensive such ship battery charger will be and if you expect to have such charger at most ports (ideally for every docked ship). Will you even need a power plant at every port?

jillesvangurp 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

You'd need big batteries in the port to act as a buffer and enough energy to charge those in between when no ships are docked. But the ship would be there for quite some time (up to a day or even more). So a few tens/hundreds mw of power would go a long way.

You'd probably want to use a mix of local wind/solar power and a grid connection. Of course, harbors usually already have lots of infrastructure to power heavy industry (steel, refineries, etc.) and transport (e.g. rail). This just adds to that.

There are also other solutions including using container batteries and simply swapping in fresh ones. Which especially in a container harbor shouldn't be that big of a deal.

ponector 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Heavy oil is almost a waste byproduct of oil refinery, could be found anywhere and quite cheap: 500$ per tonne, 500$ per 40GJ of energy.

Pretty sure electric ships are not coming anywhere near long haul shipping. However for anything close to shore - it's a real future: tugboats, bunkers, tourist boats etc.

KptMarchewa 3 days ago | parent [-]

If the demand for other oil products starts to drop due to EV prevalence, there might be less byproducts.

timthelion 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Somehow I'd imagine that you could have container size and shape batteries and maybe even stop more often in ports to swap them out using existing crain mechanisms

baq 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

2.7GWh / 24h ~= 100MW. That's SMR territory per ship, or a proper nuclear power plant if a few of them charge at the same time from empty to full, assuming they aren't all empty at the same time...

jillesvangurp 3 days ago | parent [-]

That kind of load is roughly comparable to what a modern rail network consumes. We're talking heavy transport here, of course it consumes power. The London underground consumes something like 1.2twh per year. Peak loads of around 150 mw. It's very comparable.

Harbors are already very large consumers of power. Sure, this adds to that demand but if you think about all the cranes, heavy industry, refineries, freight trains, etc. you can get to a few hundred mw easily. Adding more would definitely need planning. But it's not so dramatic. This just sounds like a good reason to invest in power generation.

loandbehold 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Charging big battery takes the same amount of time as charging small battery if charger's power is proportionally larger. E.g. charging Tesla at Supercharger takes same amount of time as charging phone using fastest phone charger.

pzo 3 days ago | parent [-]

I don't think you can just take tesla supercharger and scale it that easily to use in ships. You have to think how thick charging cables you have, how many of those you need to connect to your ship, how heavy they are, how long they are, how much heat the generate. Remember such battery would be many orders of magnitude bigger than in tesla. Tesla charger cable is many times order thicker than your usb charging cable. Now imagine many times order thicker ship charging cable and how heavy it is, how less elastic it is, how much heat generates, how much isolating cover needs (for heat, protection, magnetic field).

i_am_proteus 3 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, this is true. Realistically, a "charging station" for a ship this size would have a large pierside structure to transform/regulate, and a very large cable array that would probably be moved to the ship via a crane. The connectors would almost certainly require manual fitup and the operation would require several personnel.

(Similarly, refueling a ship is substantially more complicated than refueling an automobile.)

Maritime engineers and workers can get this job done.

PunchyHamster 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They spend like a day at port so there is a bit of time to load. The logistics of getting the power to the port gonna be harder, as it's literally hundreds of megawatts to load it at reasonable rate

Tepix 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Stick the batteries in containers and you just swap them and load them whenever it is convenient.

CharlieDigital 3 days ago | parent [-]

That is a neat solution that would make it part of the standard physical interface of the port.

All of the machinery is already designed to handle containers so it just becomes another type of container.

Tepix 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The upper weight limit for both 20ft and 40ft shipping containers is around 28,300 kg. Since SodiumLion batteries in containers will be weight limited, it makes sense to use 20ft shipping containers. One container can probably store around 3MWh of energy. For a 2700nm trip at 15 knots with 15MW of power usage, you need 2700Mwh divided by 3MWh per container gives us 900 20 ft shipping containers (TEU) for the battery.

OTOH if we look at popular shorter range routes like within Asia or Europe the calculation looks a lot more favorable.

pjc50 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The one technology that I thought might work really well here is flow batteries. You need a couple of sets of tanks, but then you can do charging by pumping out the old electrolyte and pumping in charged electrolyte. But these seem to have stagnated, possibly because they're dependent on expensive short lived membranes.

I wonder if there's significant scope for offsetting electricity consumption by adding deck renewables. Not for container ships, but maybe for tankers .. which are only needed because of fossil fuel consumption elsewhere. Hmm.

jillesvangurp 3 days ago | parent [-]

The main obstacle here is the energy density of those is much lower. We're talking 20-30wh/kg. So you would need about 7-8x more mass compared to a 170wh/kg battery. For ships like this (capable of 5000km), the tanks would take up most of the ship with barely any space for useful load.

Otherwise, it's not a bad idea as you could pump the pre-charged fluids in/out and even ship the fluid around with tankers; which opens up the possibility of fueling at sea. Spills would be bad. But probably better than oil as the toxic fluids dilute more easily. But it would still be a bad day for marine life. It might work for shorter ranges.

actionfromafar 3 days ago | parent [-]

How about towing the humble battery barge? Get a new barge when in port.

closewith 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What you are suggesting in the best case is completely uncompetitive with current ships both in terms of weight and cost. Even the charging costs for 1GWh is absurdly high compared to Heavy Fuel Oil. An orders of magnitude more expensive.

Not to mention dedicating 15-20% of deadweight tonnage (and a higher percentage, maybe 30-40% of its gross tonnage) would make a ship instantly uneconomical, especially as the batteries must be laid along the keel for stability, meaning the ship loses the ability to carry many cargoes.

What's possible in the medium term are Heavy Fuel Oil/Electric hybrids that use battery power in regulated Emission Control Areas instead of Low Sulfur Marine Fuel Oils or Diesel, and using HFO in blue waters and to charge batteries.

Transoceanic battery-powered cargo vessels are probably 100 years away - fusion will arrive first.

Tepix 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Even the charging costs for 1GWh is absurdly high compared to Heavy Fuel Oil. An orders of magnitude more expensive.

Burning 250 tons of oil to get 1GWh of energy releases around 800 tons of CO2. Let's assume a $100 CO2 tax. We want to prevent the worst of global warming, right? That would add ~25% to the price of oil.

There is likely to be an oversupply of renewable (solar) energy less than 5 years from now.

So I wouldn't be so sure about that 100 year prediction.

closewith 3 days ago | parent [-]

Even under the EU Emissions Trading System (ETS), where shipping companies already must buy allowances for CO2 emissions from large vessels calling at EU ports, costing roughly €80-€90 per tonne of CO2 emitted, batteries aren't remotely competitive with HFO/LSMFO.

Even if the electricity was free, the cost (both CAPEX and in mass/volume) is not close. We need an improvement in mass energy density and volumetric energy density of 200-1,000% and a complete redesign of all shipping and ports to migrate to battery transoceanic shipping.

SMRs, renewably cracked hydrocarbons, and fusion will all be mainstream beforehand.

Once again, this is one of those areas where HN commenters believe they can understand a complex industry based on Wikipedia-level stats.

jillesvangurp 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You forget that fuel is really expensive as well. And per gwh, electricity can be quite affordable if you don't do something as silly as pay grid prices for it. The mwh price is 80–90$, so 3 gwh (3000mwh) would be about 240K $. That's a lot of money. But filling up the tank of container ship is actually more expensive. Something like 5000 tons of fuel would be what you need. At 500$ per ton, you are looking at 2.5M $ in fuel.

Sourcing the electricity cheaper than that should be possible. E.g. wind and solar are closer to 20-30$/mwh.

The main issue is harbor infrastructure and battery production and scaling this. But from a cost point of view, sacrificing 20% cargo for an order of magnitude reduction in fuel cost is going to be very tempting.

> Transoceanic battery-powered cargo vessels are probably 100 years away - fusion will arrive first.

Or 3 years according to CATL. One of you is probably a few years off. I personally think 3 years is a bit ambitious. But ten years sounds like we might see some proof of concept at least. I have a hunch that CATL is going to be very eager to deliver such a proof of concept.

closewith 3 days ago | parent [-]

As stated elsewhere, even if the electricity to charge was free, batteries won't be economically competitive with HFO/LSMFO in this century.

> But from a cost point of view, sacrificing 20% cargo for an order of magnitude reduction in fuel cost is going to be very tempting.

No, it's not and this shows a profound misunderstanding of the maritime sector. Not to mention, it would be at least 20% of DWT and probably 40% of gross tonnage, and all at the most valuable (lowest/most-stable) part of the hull.

> Or 3 years according to CATL.

CATL make no such claim. They claim that they will be able to show electric ocean-going vessels, which there already are. They make no claims about transoceanic shipping, other than partnering with Maersk, which as stated above, will be for hybrid propulsion to avoid expensive low-sulfur fuels in ECAs and will be charged from HFO at sea.

rzerowan 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If deployed with hybrid sails [1] this could be even more competitive to Bunker fuel for bulk/container carriers and even RoRo car carriers.

IMHO a hybrid approach would achieve similar to superior perfomance to the current state viz a viz cost/perfomance and enviromental impact.

Additionally as has been deployed for some longhaul trucks battery swaps can also cut down on the time to redeploy after offloading the cargo.

[1] https://gcaptain.com/berge-bulk-launches-worlds-most-powerfu...

pfdietz 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If you assume 170 wh/kg

I've wondered if thermal storage might be superior. Lower round trip efficiency if one uses resistive heating, but I think that would be ok.

Lithium hydride, heated to melting, stores something like 4 MJ/kg, more than 6x the specific energy of your assumption there (admittedly with loss on discharge due to the losses in the turbine.) If that is too expensive, graphite is another possibility, at even higher temperature.

SigmundA 3 days ago | parent [-]

Round trip efficiency would be very poor, looks like thermal storage is around 75% efficient for the heat then the heat engine (turbine) maxes out around 45% so maybe round trip 33% efficiency if you lucky.

So that gives you around twice the wh/kg but you must keep the heat energy for the entire voyage which is constantly being lost once the onboard storage is heated up. Not sure what that look like I imagine it would be difficult to keep lithium hydride at 680C very efficiently or safely in an ocean going vessel for any length of time.

pfdietz 3 days ago | parent [-]

> looks like thermal storage is around 75% efficient for the hea

That seems unreasonably low. Thermal losses can be made arbitrarily low with insulation, and this is fairly large scale, so insulation can be thick and volume per surface area can be kept low.

3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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jononor 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If we could only complement that battery with a small nuclear reactor, then we'd be in business. Come to think of it, shipping would be quite interesting for a SpaceX style disruption - there is a market for many many thousands of units - enough to actually get good at building them in a repeatable fashion. Of course there are considerable engineering and political challenges, to put it mildly.