All of that is besides the point. People need to estimate their tasks if their managers want them to, and no amount of philosophical navel-gazing will change that.

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wpietri 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I want to be clear that I am being entirely practical here. This is not navel-gazing. I am describing something that works. That has worked for me and others for decades.

And yes, if you are in an environment where people with power want things, you have to take that into account.

But no, we don't have to just blindly do what people with power ask. The difference between being a professional an a minion is that professionals know much more about the work and how to do it than the people paying them. Personally, I think we are professionals, which gives us a variety of responsibilities not just to the person with the money, but to the profession and society at large.

Does that mean I never have given estimates? Not at all. But it does mean that if somebody asks me to do things in a way I think suboptimal, I'm at least going to say, "Hey, there's a better way to satisfy your goals here." And then I'm going to help them learn enough about the better way that they're at least willing to try it.

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xGLaDER 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Because "the manager says so" or because "estimates actually add some value"?

I think it's important that our "work culture" allows us to critique why we do certain tasks. When push comes to shove, I guess a manager can say: "Because I say so!", but I also hope those kind of managers are few and far between.

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9dev 2 days ago | parent [-]

Both, kind of. The demand to have at least a rough estimate when something will be available is justified IMHO—other departments obviously need to maintain their own timelines and schedule work that depends on output from engineering.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree that we do need to question the work culture we follow and the measures we make, and that managers with control issues shouldn't dictate them.

On the other hand, the point I was getting to is that a critique of estimation that amounts to "the work I do is so bespoke and unique and novel and important that I can't be bothered to estimate how long it'll take", is just… ignorant. Most software engineers are not lone wolf 10X wizards without any accountability, have managers and other departments to report to, and thus are not eligible to make that point.

	▲	franktankbank 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> the work I do is so bespoke and unique and novel and important that I can't be bothered to estimate how long it'll take This absolutely can be the case some of the time though. I've never pressed back on estimates of standard work but it can be a real bastard to have to work within the "process" when you are slaying a truly novel beast. Having some jackass pestering you for updates on how long it takes to climb the beanstalk and find the golden harp is just too much.
	▲	wpietri 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		This is a gross and misleading caricature of what I'm saying. I prefer this approach precisely because it increases accountability. If you'd like to learn what I'm actually suggesting, I'm happy to answer questions. Or you can read many of the things that have been written by other people on the topic.