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Evidence from the One Laptop per Child program in rural Peru(nber.org)
88 points by danso 5 hours ago | 58 comments
martey 40 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

A lot of comments here seem to suggest that we should discount or ignore this paper because the OLPC program had other benefits (increasing uptake of lower cost laptops worldwide, giving children computer skills, etc.). This is a reasonable argument assuming that most people have only read the free abstract, but this isn't the conclusion that the authors come in the actual paper. Instead, they suggest that the program might have been more successful with increased teacher training and internet access in schools.

I was able to access the NBER version of the paper, but it looks like working copies are also available in a number of other locations:

  - https://publications.iadb.org/en/laptops-long-run-evidence-one-laptop-child-program-rural-peru
  - https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5391874
  - https://www.ofermalamud.com/research
bawolff 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

While that's undoubtedly true, is that really feasible?

Training programs are expensive, and i imagine difficult to conduct across potentially remote areas with underdeveloped infrastructure.

Internet access is maybe more doable now with starlink, but how practical was it at the time? I imagine this varries significantly with region, maybe in some cases all that was needed was LTE modem -> wifi, but if actually new infrastructure needed to be set up, that could be very pricey very fast.

Like everything its all about trade offs, if olpc did those things would they have budget for other things?

aserr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There’s a book, The Charisma Machine (https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262537445/the-charisma-machine/), that examines outcomes from multiple OLPC initiatives and covers many of the failings.

ChrisArchitect 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Some of the more recent lookbacks with anecdotes and takes:

The Charisma Machine: The life, death, and legacy of One Laptop per Child (2022)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29971982

OLPC’s $100 laptop was going to change the world (2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16849374

hamdingers an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

OLPC may not have helped many rural children directly, but it did inspire an entire class of computers (netbooks/chromebooks) that made computing more accessible for children and adults across the world. For that reason, I think it was a worthwhile pursuit.

ghaff an hour ago | parent [-]

Netbooks were largely a passing fad as were Chromebooks in large part, though the latter are still around to some degree. However, OLPC went beyond cheap laptops and, however well-intentioned, never really took off as a unique entity.

avhon1 a minute ago | parent | next [-]

Chromebooks are ubiquitous in U.S. primary and secondary schools

sien an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

From : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromebook#Sales_and_marketing

"In 2020, Chromebooks outsold Apple Macs for the first time by taking market share from laptops running Microsoft Windows. This rise is attributed to the platform's success in the education market.[79][80][81]"

Hmm.

This is interesting. Searches give you different numbers.

But it looks like the number of Chromebooks sold each year is comparable, but probably lower than the number of Macs.

ghaff 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

They've become the browser-centric portal for the education market which is the only thing a lot of people need/want. (I probably prefer that to defaulting to tablets/smartphones.)

At the same time, as far as I can tell, Chromebooks are pretty much all K-12 focused devices at this point. Which is fine. But I'd potentially buy something higher-end if it were available. But it isn't.

grogenaut 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

I buy and re-image old chromebooks to use for terminals for paperwork at a few places I volunteer, they're like $50 and easy to reimage... and nice for doing paperwork.

rr808 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

2020 was a special time where every child in America was given a Chromebook so they could do school from home.

zozbot234 42 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Small laptop computers are ergonomically useful to children who literally have a smaller body frame. I don't think there were many of those around prior to OLPC and/or netbooks, beyond specialty products like the Toshiba Libretto and perhaps the original Psion Netbook. Nowadays we still have low-end smaller ultrabooks that are effectively quite comparable to the former netbooks.

ghaff 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

And I don't think there's much available today. I used to have a small Asus for travel (and a small windows Fujitsu before that). But there are very few <13" laptops/Chromebooks available these days.

bawolff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the (overly utopian and unrealistic) ideological basis was not that students would neccesarily do better in traditional learning environments, but that they would become better self-learners and be able to teach themselves things that are relavent to their own needs which may differ from the official curriculum.

I doubt that happened, but i don't think this study would capture that if it did.

diziet 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An unfortunate yet unsurprising report to those familiar with the literature on cognitive ability. I too donated to similar programs. I hope better computer skills make some sort of earning impact, though the prevalence of smart phones probably makes a bigger difference.

lurk2 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> An unfortunate yet unsurprising report to those familiar with the literature on cognitive ability.

The conclusion of that literature being…?

texasthistle an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I feel like this is well known in academic psychology circles:

Cognitive ability is largely biological/genetic and can't be "trained up" so to speak, except for temporary gains or for very narrow, specific methods the training employs.

However, computer literacy is certainly a worthwhile skill to train.

mmooss an hour ago | parent [-]

> Cognitive ability is largely biological/genetic and can't be "trained up" so to speak

Would you share evidence? How are you defining 'cognitive ability'?

The idea that cognitive ability doesn't benefit from education is unbelievable - the opposite of experience and of what I understand.

literalAardvark an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Education helps channel cognitive ability into useful pathways, but you either have something to channel or don't.

Though I'd go with innate over genetic: leaves more room for nurture and epigenetics and doesn't make one sound like a white supremacist.

mmooss an hour ago | parent [-]

> you either have something to channel or don't

Again, any evidence? What exactly is 'cognitive ability'? A hallmark of the lack of substantive argument is vague terms that can mean anything the speaker likes, and by not defining the term they prevent any substantive critique - nobody really knows what they're talking about (and usually, not the speaker either).

I highly doubt it's all or nothing. While there are likely variations in anything, they can be quite insignificant. For example, everyone, with tiny exceptions, can learn to speak & understand language, and write & read - highly sophisticated cognitive abilities. And they can improve those abilities through education.

These baseless generalities don't show much 'cognitive ability'.

literalAardvark 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

There's plenty of evidence for those who want to learn instead of split hairs.

I'd start with a search on "general intelligence factor".

mmooss 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

So you've got nothing to offer?

literalAardvark 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

I answered your question clearly and in good faith.

The rest of your diatribe is US styled drivel I don't feel the need to engage with, so I didn't.

What exactly did your posts contribute?

zapzupnz 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you really lmgtfy-ing on Hacker News?

tbrownaw an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This disagreement sounds like what I've heard about fluid intelligence vs crystallized intelligence.

mmooss an hour ago | parent [-]

Would you share it ...? :)

anonymousiam 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sad if true. I was a donor, and the program had good intentions.

Arrowmaster 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

At least now instead of just theory we have one study of the results and a data point to use in the next attempt at a similar project. The idea is probably still solid and could be attempted again but with a more refined implementation.

baobun 2 hours ago | parent [-]

75% or so of venture-backed startups fail within 5 years. OLPC results certainly aren't enough to invalidate the concept or model.

embedding-shape an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't think you'll find a deeper study than this. And not everything was bad, at least one benefit was "significantly improved students’ computer skills" which may help them get employed in the future, the study focused mostly of academia but there is a whole world outside of academia :)

cbsmith an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the interesting thing is they saw significant improvement in computer skills, but no significant improvement in academic performance. It suggests to me that the academic program, or at least the measures from it, didn't factor in computer skills, which seems a mistake given their relevance.

true2octave 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AI will have similar effect in general population

No significant effect except in the minority who have the drive and capabilities to leverage new technology to achieve their goals

There is always a bias on the effects of new technology because the early adopters are already highly capable people

freeopinion an hour ago | parent [-]

AI has very clearly disincentivized learning. I don't think OLPC can be accused of that.

torginus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I constantly use ChatGPT to learn new things, both in terms of software engineering and more general knowledge.

I've learned a ton of new things from ChatGPT, some which might even be right.

lurk2 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> Following schools over time, we find no significant effects on academic performance but some evidence of negative effects on grade progression.

ChrisArchitect 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A similar NPR report from 2012:

One Child, One Laptop ... And Mixed Results In Peru

https://www.npr.org/2012/10/13/162719126/one-child-one-lapto...

rowanG077 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not sure why people here call it a failure. The children who got a laptop have reached superior skill in using computers, while it seems like not sacrificing any other capability. That seems like a great result, skilled computer use is a highly valuable skill.

marcosdumay 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, it was a clear success. It not only did they improve the education of several children and gathered valuable information on how we can try it better next time, they also scared an oligopolistic industry into diversifying their products and supplying several needs that were ignored.

That said, OLPC was extremely ambitious. I don't think they achieved any of the project's objectives. They get a lot of criticism because of that, and it's all ridiculously unfair.

rayiner 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Many people thought that giving kids computers would make the smarter and more generally educated, not just give them better skills with computers.

marcosdumay an hour ago | parent [-]

Many people though that giving kids entire new ways to access knowledge and cooperate on their projects would make them smarter and more generally educated.

And honestly, if you think that's stupid, I'm not really interested on whatever else you think on the subject. It happened to not work for several reasons, some of them mistakes from the OLPC project, but insisting it's an inevitable result is just uninformed blabber.

lurk2 an hour ago | parent [-]

> but insisting it's an inevitable result is just uninformed blabber.

There’s one failed program indicating that it didn’t work. Are you aware of any successful programs showing that it could?

lurk2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The level of technical aptitude the average westerner has just by proxy of being surrounded by electronics is one of those things like running water that gets taken completely for granted. Even a lifelong ditch digger is going to benefit from learning how to send and receive email, and in 2005 it was not a given that he would have.

alephnerd 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The tens of millions per year spent on OLPC could have been better applied to programs that have demonstrated tangible positive impact on human capital development in developing countries, such as free meal programs [0], early childhood developmental screening [1], and other evidence-based policies.

Heck, most policymakers in LDCs panned the program at the time as well not actually prioritizing the aid that was needed [2]

[0] - https://econ.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/Bonds.pdf

[1] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5859813/

[2] - https://web.archive.org/web/20170210165101/http://edition.cn...

mmooss an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Those effective strategies were developed through the same method of research and development as OLPC. At one point, we didn't know about those benefits; should we have not experimented with those strategies?

The nature of research is that some things succeed/fail to different degrees than others, and some that have not sufficiently succeeded will in the future, or will inform other successes. If we already knew the answers, it wouldn't be research.

alephnerd 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

The issue was there was no robust quantitative research done before OLPC was created.

The programs I gave as examples above all had previously been tested in control groups via RCT before they were rolled out en masse. On top of that, these programs were done in coordination with local stakeholders.

This is why JPAL@MIT [0] (Banerjee, Duflo) and REAP@Stanford [1] (Liu, Wang, Rozelle) have had significant success in helping raise HDIs in the states in India and China respectively that they worked with.

[0] - https://www.povertyactionlab.org/

[1] - https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/reap

lurk2 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Heck, most policymakers in LDCs panned the program at the time as well not actually prioritizing the aid that was needed [2]

I don’t have any insight as to what sort of aid would have been more effective, but quite frankly some of the criticisms were ridiculous when you consider the majority of people in these countries had a cheap mobile phone in their pocket a decade later.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/10/09/majorities-in-...

jazzyjackson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bit like the argument that we shouldn't have gone to the moon

tvshtr an hour ago | parent [-]

Not a bit like, exactly like. It's a false dichotomy.

lurk2 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

It’s not a false dichotomy at all. There is a finite set of resources that can be deployed at any given time. $1 spent on a laptop is $1 that isn’t going to medicine. This usually a curve rather than a straight line (so usually you’re better off with some combination of both), but this doesn’t really apply to a situation where your limiting factor is dollars rather than the factors of production.

fragmede 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That has an Effective Altruism feel to it though, which is unfortunately tainted due to SBF's involvement and other drama surrounding it.

crooked-v 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A lot of people seem to have thought the progression would be "1. Give computers; 2. ???; 3. Better at everything".

jazzyjackson 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Inspired by the computer in the wall in 1999 Sugata Mitra in which yes, just having a computer exist as a local curiosity lead to kids teaching themselves

https://waack.org/2010/04/27/put-more-computers-outside-the-...

https://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_kids_can_teach_themse...

dev1ycan an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What did anyone expect? really, many children especially in the Andes suffer from lead intoxication from mining, fruits and vegetables for export are premium quality while the ones for local consumption are bathed in pesticides and other chemicals, kids in the amazon suffer from parasites and other illnesses, tons of regions have malnutrition... etc.

Then there's the fact that Peru is massive (compared to Europe) and most of it lacks internet connectivity, only just recently Starlink started giving newer phones SMS capabilities outside of coverage, but that's as far as it'll go and only for modern expensive phones.

Those kids are not going to open a laptop and have a good time attempting to learn something (if they can even reach the internet), I myself have ADHD and it took me so long to even search and discover khan academy (let's not even begin with how much worse sites like Khan Academy are when you don't have the primary instructor, giving said lessons), add in low energy/inability to concentrate or want to do academic work with memory issues due to intoxication and or malnutrition and... yeah, good luck with that.

There is high amount of talent in Peru, you can tell because there's government programs to give gifted students from public schools free scholarship to private universities and they all end up top of their class, the hardest university to enter into in Peru happens to be a public university too (national university of engineering), it's exam is pretty fucking hard for someone who just graduated high school and even then the vast majority of students who enter come from poor backgrounds.

ChrisArchitect 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

OLPC? like, the Negroponte thing from way back? That was dead in water within 5 years or so? (As sad as that was) Just surprised to see a study/report on it this many years later.

mapmeld 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Well that's sort of the point, does it have a positive effect for that cohort of kids years later? The OLPC hardware was looking rough several years ago and Uruguay's Plan Ceibal and other projects aren't using their hardware today. For reasons unclear to me, Sugar Labs (their OS / UI) just got nonprofit status last year?

actionfromafar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They got way ambitious with the interface (GUI). I didn’t understand how to do anything with it.

Lerc 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

The user interface was an experiment in itself. It was a lot of python which was way too heavy for the machines delivered, it presented a new platform, and thus a barrier to entry to anyone in the field with general computer skills.

If it had have been delivered using the same Linux base with any number of off-the-shelf minimal window managers it would performed much faster, and the body of people who knew how to make software for it would have existed many of whom would have been happy to make what they needed.

Instead they got a "We've chosen this for you" of something that had not proven its worth.

I still think there's scope for educational systems in all parts of the world if they facilitated development of software that does things that the teachers ask for.

I'd love to see a grant program that gave schools money ear tagged for development on open source projects. The schools get to pay for things that they decide they would like, but it has the requirement that it has to be open source because if one school wanted it there's a chance another school will too. They can choose to pool resources and produce even better things.

bombcar an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I still think a modified Nintendo DS would have done much more for the same price; if they could get them onboard.