| ▲ | jinzo 3 hours ago |
| Is it insane? I'm working in this field, and I know how quickly you can come up with such a number if you are BMW and you are deathly afraid that someone will get electrocuted while working on your car, driving it or rescuing someone in a crash. It's a safety and liability issue, where they go to great lengths to actually re-certify a battery after crash. The whole thing is setup so, that even the dummy electricians in an average BMW shop can safely certify that this battery is still safe. It's a lot easier to kill yourself (or someone else) when working on a EV Battery than wet belt. Also a lot harder to repair said battery than wet belt. And that goes for all EVs and manufacturers that actually care about people (Tesla, demonstrably does not). |
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| ▲ | jacquesm an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Yes, it is insane. It's a fuse. They must have some stats on how often those things need replacing and it should have been accessible. The customer has - when they buy the car - absolutely no way of knowing what kind of surprises like this there are hidden in the vehicle and besides, it kills the second hand market so you can only trade your vehicle to a BMW dealership where they can absorb those costs for a fraction of what it will cost an end user. BMW is a crap brand in spite of their reputation, we've had one leased Mini in our company and it is the very last time we do business with BMW, that thing was more in the shop than out of it with electrical issues. A friend had pretty much every BMW ever made since he got wealthy enough to afford them (car enthusiast) and his experience is much the same, but he keeps buying them. |
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| ▲ | taneq 40 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s not a fuse. It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability. | | |
| ▲ | close04 a minute ago | parent | next [-] | | > It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability. If that was the issue you wouldn't be allowed to change your wheels on the side of the road. They'd be locked down to the car and require a complex software procedure to guarantee they were swapped correctly and won't endanger lives. This is a professional shop raising the issues. They are liable for how the repair is done. BMW is just liable to lose money if people can easily fix their car at some other, cheaper, professional garage. | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It’s a fuse plus guarantee plus liability. This is BMW we're talking about. Their guarantees are worth absolutely nothing if my experience is anything to go by and them accepting liability is not something you should have to pay 4K for if other brands can do the same thing under $100. |
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| ▲ | lazide an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Fuses are not items that should be replaced normally - they are self-destroying emergency protections for the electrical system. If it is protecting that end users can plug arbitrary loads into, that is one thing - but this doesn’t sound like that? Why did that fuse blow? Because if that is not addressed, it’s likely to just blow again. | | |
| ▲ | bradfa 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This fuse blows because a crash was detected and it is to protect the people inside the car and rescuers. The article argument is that it can blow even for small crashes where no damage to the battery occurs but rehabilitating the vehicle still incurs an outrageous cost. This is not a simple over current protection fuse. $1000 for the module with the fuse seems ok to me. Another $3000 to link the module to the vehicle is the outrageous part. | |
| ▲ | torginus 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ladies and gentlemen - behold the perfect consumer | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think the people that replace fuses are aware of the potential issues around them. The article - which I'm sure you've read so don't take this as commentary on your comment - details that in other electric vehicles, for instance Tesla this is handled quite differently: "While Tesla’s pyrofuse costs €11 and the BMS reset is around 50€, allowing the car to be safely restored, BMW’s approach borders on illogical engineering, with no benefit to safety, no benefit to anti-theft protection — the only outcome is the generation of billable labour hours and massive amounts of needless electronic/lithium waste." It's not a choice between 'ridiculously inaccessible with the potential to create more damage than your car is worth' and 'push to reset'. There are many options in between, some of which would be a happy medium between the two that protect both safety, the environment and the customers' wallet. Which BMW's solution clearly isn't. | | |
| ▲ | lazide 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | 1) a lot of people aren’t aware of that issue with fuses, and just keep replacing them while burning up wiring/ignoring actual problems. Or even worse manually bypass. I agree that it isn’t in this specific situation. My bad. 2) this is the norm for BMW. The only brand I’m aware of that is somewhat common and worse is Jaguar. I get the complaint, don’t get me wrong, but it’s a bit like a Lotus or Lamborghini owner complaining about the rough ride. Like what did you expect bro? |
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| ▲ | kristjank 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Fuses are necessary on any electrical system, and especially in a car, which is an electrical shitshow (floating ground, high-voltage and high-frequency interference), fuses blow all the time. Granted, usually on a well-maintained and new car it happens very rarely, but saying that it's a catastrophic and concerning event is dumb. | | |
| ▲ | lazide 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | What sort of cars do you drive? I’ve never had a fuse blow on a car less than 20 years old, and then it was due to shorts due to damaged insulation and
bad grounds due to corrosion, which are legit problems that need to be corrected. Also, unlike breakers, fuses are generally immune to issues with HF interference and the like - they work through basic thermoelectric effects which iron out all but the most extreme issues. If you’re moving multiple amps in a situation described as ‘RF’, or ‘high frequency’ in a DC system that’s not just noise! That’s a real problem that needs fixing! Not fixing the underlying problem behind a blown fuse (or constantly tripping breaker) is how your car (or house or whatever) burns to the ground. Or you have a Lucas, in which case my condolences. | | |
| ▲ | kristjank 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I'll grant you that, I had a lot of beaters. A typical thing was that a lock solenoid pulled too much current in cold weather and consistently blew the central locking fuse. |
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| ▲ | taneq 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yep, might be there was a known issue that was addressed, at which put in a new one. But just replacing a fuse (or, simultaneously worse and better, just resetting a breaker) without further investigation is just kicking a very spicy can down the road. I had a doozy of a trip issue on one project, a motor would occasionally (not always, no real pattern, hot/cold/etc. didn’t matter) trip the breaker, requiring a sparky to come out and open up the panel to reset it. We tried a bunch of things, megger-ing the motor, testing peak startup current on each phase with a fancy meter, checking phase-to-neutral current (Larger than you’d think! But this was normal, apparently.) Everything was normal. In the end all we could think something was weird about the contactor. They took it out (I was off site at the time) and took it down to the substation to test it out. With three phases connected to the contactor (and nothing connected on the other side) they energised the coil, and with an almighty bang it tripped the main incomer and took the entire sub offline. Turns out there was a manufacturing defect in the contactor and sometimes for a millisecond, if the phase of the moon was right, it dead shorted two phases. So there, even when you know everything, you don’t know everything. |
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| ▲ | bluescrn 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Many people drive older cars worth less than £4000. Sticking to old/cheap cars seems like an increasingly good option with so many scare stories about the pain and extreme expense of getting modern cars, particularly EVs, repaired. And the impending ban on new ICE vehicles seems likely to lead to more older cars being kept on the road for a lot longer. |
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| ▲ | torginus 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah - a car hits a similar valuation around ~15 years of age, meaning a failure of this component limits the financially viable lifespan of a car to this amount - mechanics do engine rebuilds for less money. | |
| ▲ | jacquesm an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | My current car is my last. It's a 1997 and it runs pretty much as good as new and I expect the thing to outlive me. |
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| ▲ | RealityVoid an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, it's insane. People working in the field have their perception warped by what they see around them. |
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| ▲ | close04 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The article and comment aren't debating whether the fuse plays an essential role. There's no reason to make the process of fixing the issue after a minor incident expensive, extremely convoluted, and very prone to error. Making it a very complicated and expensive fix isn't what's saving your rescuer or mechanic from getting electrocuted while working around your car. |
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| ▲ | entrox 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > There's no reason to make the process of fixing the issue after a minor incident expensive, extremely convoluted, and very prone to error. Yes there is. Either nobody is engineering towards that aspect or it is a conscious decision, deliberating between two different buckets: bill-of-material cost per unit and estimated impact on your warranty & goodwill budget. Whatever is deemed to be cheaper will win. Source: I work at an automotive OEM and one of my first projects almost two decades ago was how to anchor after-sales requirements into the engineering process. For example, we did things like introducing special geometry into the CAD models representing the space that needs to be left free so a mechanic can fit his hands with a tool inside. These would then be considered in the packaging process. If you consider these are two completely different organizations, it becomes a very tricky problem to solve. | | |
| ▲ | actionfromafar 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's like the manufacturer discovering to their complete surprise they are building a car. :-D |
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| ▲ | gmueckl 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You seem to be ignoring the fact that the battery pack status after a crash is essentially unknown. It should go through a thorough and competently conducted safety inspection or it may kill someone in the future. Of course, this doesn't excuse extra red tape tacked into the procedure, but the core idea of an inspection is just unavoidable. | | |
| ▲ | close04 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Of course, this doesn't excuse extra red tape tacked into the procedure That's exactly it. I understand the importance of safety but reading the list of complaints I just cannot believe that safety is the key driver for the design decisions. > ISTA’s official iBMUCP replacement procedure is so risky that if you miss one single step — poorly explained within ISTA — the system triggers ANTITHEFT LOCK. > Meaning: even in an authorised service centre, system can accidentally delete the configuration and end up needing not only a new iBMUCP, but also all new battery modules. > BMW refuses to provide training access for ISTA usage Everything about this screams greed driven over-engineering. Since when are error prone processes and lack of access to information better for safety? We live in a world where everyone justifies taking user hostile actions with some variation of "safety". Software and hardware are locked down, backdoored, need manufacturer approval to operate even when original parts are used, etc. |
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