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margalabargala an hour ago

The word "cheating" is loaded with a lot of values and judgement that I think makes it inappropriate to use the way you did.

There's a point where it's not immoral to leverage systems available to you to land yourself in a better situation. Avoiding increasingly-overcrowded housing situations is I think one of them.

If Stanford's standards for these housing waivers are sufficiently broad that 38% of their students quality, isn't that a problem with Stanford's definitions, not with "cheating"?

groundzeros2015 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The direct result of this thinking is that people who need the accommodation face difficulty in getting it.

You don’t have to return your shopping cart. You don’t have to donate to the collection plate. You don’t have to give a coworker recognition.

But when everyone has an adversarial “get mine” attitude the systems have to be changed. Instead of assuming good intent they have to enforce it. Enforcement is very expensive and very unpleasant. (For example, maybe you need to rent the shopping cart.)

Unfortunately enforcement is a self fulfilling cycle. When people see others cheating they feel they need to cheat just to not be left behind.

You may be from a culture where this is the norm. Reflect on its impact and how we would really like to avoid this.

shadowgovt an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> You don’t have to donate to the collection plate

Hey, if they stop using the money I donate to advertise that my neighbors are abominations in the eyes of God they can have my money again.

zeroCalories 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The problem is that people simply have no investment in a community anymore. This is a direct consequence of globalization and capitalism. Travel to a foreign land, exploit the locals, and return home. Westerners are just now realizing that they're on the receiving end of it now.

swatcoder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There's a point where it's not immoral to leverage systems available to you to land yourself in a better situation.

That sounds loaded with a lot of value judgment. I don't think it's inappropriate for you to suggest it, but I think you'll find that a lot of people who value equitability, collaboration, communalism, modesty, earnestness, or conservation of resources might not share that perspective with you.

It turns out that people just disagree about values and are going to weigh judgment on others based on what they believe. You don't have to share their values, but you do kind of just need to be able to accept that judgment as theirs when you do things they malign.

socalgal2 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I live in liberal cities. Nearly every car drive and bicycle rider has the attitude "F everyone else, I'm going to break every law if I find it inconvenient to myself. Who cares if it affects others"

This is not in alignment with "equitability, collaboration, communalism, modesty, earnestness, or conservation of resources"

People claim those values but rarely actually follow them.

decremental 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

guelo an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

What is the honorable value that leads to "I'll get mine screw everybody else"?

ahmeneeroe-v2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the culture I grew up in, this was considered cheating.

delichon an hour ago | parent [-]

A culture that honored truth telling and integrity. Was that long ago or far away?

shermantanktop an hour ago | parent [-]

"culture i grew up in" could easily mean "what my parents/older relatives told me they did, when they told me to be like them."

Once you grow up, you realize your parents were human, made self-interested decisions, and then told themselves stories that made their actions sound principled. Some more than others, of course.

IAmBroom an hour ago | parent [-]

I'll skip the "my parents" part, because I'm an old, but ... NO ONE had independent housing their Freshman year in college at my hometown uni, unless they had prior residency in the area (were commuting from home).

So, yeah: that morality did exist, and not just in fables.

BeetleB 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

I went to a mediocre undergrad, and a top 5 school for grad. The difference in morals was quite notable, and cheating was much more prevalent in the latter (not just in classes, but for things like this as well).

arolihas 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is the promotion of values and behaviors that plague a low-trust society. I think making excuses for it is truly inappropriate and immoral.

Cpoll an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is tragedy of the commons exactly. Whether it's moral depends entirely on the ethical theory you subscribe to.

> a problem with Stanford's definitions

Only if students aren't lying on their application.

iepathos an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree with you that cheating is a loaded word, but the question at the end here that the rules or standards enable users to work around it therefore it's not cheating is a bad semantic argument. We can use the exact same argument to excuse every kind of rule breaking that people do. If a hacker drains a billion dollars out of a smart contract, then they literally were only able to do so because the coded rules of the smart contract itself enabled it through whatever flaw the hacker identified. That doesn't make it less illegal or not cheating for the hacker. It feels like victim blaming to point the finger at the institution being exploited or people who get hacked and say its their problem not the individuals intentionally exploiting them.

BeetleB 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While on the one hand I get where you're coming from, on the other hand I simply say "One does not have to go to Stanford."

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> a point where it's not immoral to leverage systems available to you to land yourself in a better situation

That point is probably behind someone at Stanford.

inglor_cz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This attitude was one of the things that collapsed the former Eastern Bloc. "He who does not steal is stealing from his own family."

nradov 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

Stealing from work was so normalized in the former USSR that it wasn't even considered stealing, just "carrying out". Jobs in meatpacking facilities were highly desired because even though nominal wages were low, workers could make so much more by selling on the black market. The entire system was rotten from top to bottom.

jay_kyburz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you lie (or exaggerate) about a disability and claim a benefit, you could be denying somebody with more serious disabilities getting the help they need.

an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
iwontberude an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

donbox an hour ago | parent [-]

please... enough with the lazy stereotypes

Supermancho 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

Google: China Cheating. Stereotype or not, it's a well documented characteristic of some social systems. This isn't to imply a moralist view. This cultural phenomena is a recognized pattern of behavior across industries, as well as the education system. It's viciously pragmatic. A key part of their rapid industrialization and digital transition. It's not surprising, given the success, nor is it necessary to pretend otherwise.

lostmsu an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> The word "cheating" is loaded with a lot of values and judgement that I think makes it inappropriate to use the way you did.

I'm glad you had no problem with "dumpster fuck".