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4ndr3vv 3 hours ago

> It has always bothered me that by "spectrum" they mean not the sort of continuous thing

Oh but they do. the "spectrum" is by how socially acceptable someone's autism is.

rusk 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> how socially acceptable someone

I intuitively understand this but has it been clinically defined?

toast0 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

DSM-V [1] describes criteria / symptoms in two groups (caps from document, sorry):

> A. PERSISTENT DEFICITS IN SOCIAL COMMUNICATION AND SOCIAL INTERACTION ACROSS CONTEXTS, NOT ACCOUNTED FOR BY GENERAL DEVELOPMENTAL DELAYS

> B. RESTRICTED, REPETITIVE PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR, INTERESTS, OR ACTIVITIES

For criteria A, severity is more or less measured by how much social impairment is observed --- that's a measure of social acceptability in some fashion.

For criteria B, the severity criteria is about "interference with functioning in contexts" as well as observed distress of the patient. Interference with functioning can be related to the patient resisting the desired function, but it can also be because the patient is socially excluded due to their behavior.

Although, I should point out clinical criteria in general and the DSM in specific are a formalization of arbitrary judgements that describe observable characteristics grouped into a diagnostic category; this can be useful, but it's not really an understanding of the underlying condition(s), it's a handbook of things to look for when a patient comes asking for help and what things to try to help them. If someone has the same underlying conditions but manages to pass as socially acceptable, they may not come in for help, and that's fine too. When multiple underlying conditions result in similar observable criteria, the DSM gets pretty confused; there's not much in the way of attaching traces and getting debug logs for mental processes though, especially out in the world, so this is the best society has, I guess.

[1] https://depts.washington.edu/dbpeds/Screening%20Tools/DSM-5(...

kube-system an hour ago | parent [-]

"Society's acceptance of a person who has a condition", and "a condition that inhibits social interactions" are two entirely different things.

notarobot123 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

If I persistently ask awkward questions, that might "inhibit social interactions". If my community was tolerant and even accepting of this behavior it might not inhibit social interactions quite as much. They are different things for some behaviors but extremely closely related for others.

JohnMakin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

ASD is defined by the level of support the individual needs. It says nothing about “fitting in” or by pain or anything else like that

sundarurfriend 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suspect part of your parent comment's point is that this is an implicit bias in the way the spectrum is defined and thought of, so it wouldn't be clinically defined in those terms explicitly.

In other words, the "spectrum" doesn't exist to capture the variation in the autistic person's own experience - if it did, it would look very different. It's a remnant of a time when autism was seen as just a "problem" for the people around you, and the spectrum measures how much of a problem you are and how weird you are seen by their measure; which does map onto a continuous line in the same way.

That does capture something useful, but only a small part of what autism actually comprises, and is much less useful at capturing the autistic person's own experience of it, and makes it a less useful tool to them than people might assume.

michaelt an hour ago | parent [-]

It's not unusual for diagnostic criteria to hinge on the impact the thing is having on your work/family/school life.

Alcoholism, for example - we don't define alcoholism as drinking ≥2 bottles of wine a week, or say that 1 glass of wine a week is part of an alcoholism spectrum.

Instead, we ask whether drinking often interferes with taking care of home and family; or leads to job/school troubles; or has lead to getting arrested.

How much of a problem an alcoholic is for others being roughly equal to how much of a problem alcoholism is for the alcoholic.

sundarurfriend 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Instead, we ask whether drinking often interferes with taking care of home and family; or leads to job/school troubles; or has lead to getting arrested.

We don't ask just that, and the diagnosis doesn't hinge on those - in fact those account for only 3 (or 4 depending on how you count) of the 11 diagnostic criteria for alcohol use disorder. The others are about the person's own experience with alcohol, the difficulties and psychological problems caused by it to the person themself. And that's for alcohol use, an external behaviour-based problem with a specific narrow scope. Autism is a much wider construct with much more varied impact and experiences, and yet in practice people are placed somewhere on the spectrum based mainly on external interactions and troubles.

Historically this came about because people who were "low-functioning" caused more difficulties to others, whereas "high-functioning" folk didn't - even though they might have comparable amounts of difficulties and psychological anguish internally and in need of similar help too. This simplistic view is changing slowly within the field and with some therapists recognizing it better for what it is, but it's still not nearly as widely recognized as it needs to be.

mikestorrent 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Has social acceptability in any context ever been defined, beyond say, rules of etiquette? It's a free market and everyone is arguably entitled to test to see what it will bear.

lazide 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The entire nature of the field of psychology and mental health treatment is relative to pain and dysfunction.

If people fit in well and didn’t have issues (either internal pain/suffering or society interaction pain/suffering), they are not applicable to the field.

prepend an hour ago | parent [-]

This is key and what makes something a disorder.

Everyone experiences some obsession or compulsion. But only some experience it to the degree of a disorder.

Just like everyone has some “autistic” tendencies. But it is only a disorder in some.