Don't they charge a minimum just for keeping the wires connected?

abdullahkhalids 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I heard that they are trying to restructure the billing in this way for next fiscal year (July 2026- ), but its really difficult to find a non-regressive scheme. Electricity per-unit prices in Pakistan are set by the government, they vary depending on how much you consume [1], and they play a pretty significant role in government popularity.

[1] There is a price for the first 50 units you consume, then a higher price for the next 150 units, etc. Similar system to income taxes.

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namibj 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Grids in Germany if you're not a "typical household/office" with therefore atypical grid usage bill for peak power and energy separately; the billing related peak power is measured by averaging power over 15 minute chunks, and taking the worst one of a year.

Alternatively it's also practical for such solar situations to bill for market rate price of the energy in each 15 minute chunk separately; this doesn't correctly attribute transformer and other transmission equipment expenses between solar houses and non-solar houses, but it's still handling the grid tie solar load on the grid's power plants during periods of very little sun.

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andyferris an hour ago | parent [-]

> averaging power over 15 minute chunks, and taking the worst one of a year.

What an interesting metric. Wouldn't even a very cheap and small battery (definitely small enough to keep inside an appartment) provide enough smoothing to, like, halve this peak number? You could rig it to not even output energy until you are beyond the current year's peak usage... How much money would you save this way?

I just feel this number is so prone to small mistakes (grandma plugs in the wrong things at the wrong times) and hacks (like the above) that the relationship between users' reward/punishment and the grid's health seems wildly disproportionate.

> market rate price of the energy in each 15 minute chunk separately

I am currently on a plan with 5 minute market rates, can buy and sell in (sell prices can go negative - as can buy, actually), all automated. At least I feel we am working with the grid, not against it, and we make a small net profit (before depreciation).

	▲	Tuna-Fish 32 minutes ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> relationship between users' reward/punishment and the grid's health seems wildly disproportionate. It's still much closer to the real costs for the grid operator than $/kWh. The fundamental problem that rooftop solar has revealed is that people think they are paying for the electricity, but they are not. Electricity is dirt cheap. Most of what they are paying for is the maintenance of the grid, and simple usage based billing crushes the system because of freeloader problem once rooftop solar is added. Long term, the likely thing you pay for will be the size of the main fuse that connects you to the grid. Because that's the thing that scales with the costs you impose on the operator.
	▲	distances 43 minutes ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		> Wouldn't even a very cheap and small battery (definitely small enough to keep inside an appartment) Like namibj mentioned, this does not apply for residential contracts.

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phkahler 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When they start charging that way, the rich will buy batteries and disconnect from the grid entirely.

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bee_rider 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think most places the service is priced under the assumption that usage is enough to pay for the grid…

I’ve only ever rented though. Are connection fees something that homeworkers think about?

Possibly we will have to see changes to account for this sort of stuff at a more granular level, as the grid becomes more dynamic. But, that’s a future we should be actively looking to design for, as the energy supply mix is going to change whatever anybody thinks about that. Can’t beat energy falling from the sky, on price…

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namibj 3 hours ago | parent [-]

In a random German apartment usage tends to be on the order of 30-ish EUR per person, and the connection fee is typically around 10 EUR per month.

	▲	apelapan 28 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Is the €30 usage fee going directly to the producer of electricity, or is part of it a variable transmission fee that goes to the network operator? My monthly electricity bill in Sweden, averaged over a year to 1600KWh/month, is approximately €90 production, €50 transmission fee, €25 fixed connection-size fee (25A, 400V), €70 national electricity tax and €50 VAT for a total of €285/month. We'll be moved to yearly-peak-based transmission tariff in 2027 (European law), but for now I don't need to worry about plugging in the car to chargeon cold days or taking shower when someone is cooking.

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3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[deleted]

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manmal 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Usually that’s included in per-kWh fee, so indeed usage dependent.