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| ▲ | Rebelgecko 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The financials of childcare don't really make sense to me. YMMV depending on your situation, but childcare costs are basically equivalent to my wife's teacher salary. And because of our tax bracket, it'd actually be CHEAPER for her to quit her job and take care of 2 kids full time, vs getting paid teach like 20 kids. There's tradeoffs in terms of career progression, but it seems broken that there's a decent financial argument for leaving the workforce. |
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| ▲ | abustamam 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That either means that childcare is too expensive or teachers don't get paid enough (probably both tbh) I feel like a lot of folks don't actually do this math, and don't realize that they're essentially just working to pay someone else to watch their kid. | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > That either means that childcare is too expensive or teachers don't get paid enough (probably both tbh) It's not necessarily either one. If you do it yourself, you reuse the existing home instead of needing a separate building with its own rent, maintenance and security, the children and the adult watching them wake up in the same place instead of both having to commute to the childcare building, you have no administrative costs in terms of hiring, HR, accounting, background checks, etc. By the time you add up all the additional costs, you can easily end up underwater against doing it yourself even if each adult in the central facility is watching more kids -- and that itself is a cost because then each kid gets less attention. | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Yip. Oddly enough, this has a lot of economic parallels with cooking at home vs eating out. For a silly example, you can make an Egg McMuffin for a tiny fraction of what you'd pay at McDonalds for one. Yet McDonalds (franchise, not corporate) operate on single digit profit margins. Why? Because when you buy that Egg McMuffin you're not just paying for it. You're paying for an entire building of workers, the rent on that building, their licensing fees, their advertising costs, their electric costs, and much more. When you make it at home you're paying for nothing but the ingredients. So it creates a paradoxical scenario - you're getting charged way more for stuff than if you made it yourself, but yet somehow you're not getting ripped off. | |
| ▲ | coryrc 9 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Poorer people use home-based daycares, which has the same cost advantages. |
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| ▲ | mixmastamyk 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sounds like barter to me. There are some benefits, the kid expands their social life, the parent gets to fulfill career needs, etc. There may be issues, but shouldn't be thought of in completely negative terms. |
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| ▲ | cogman10 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Behold the glory of private equity. Childcare is expensive because it's an industry captured by PE and in usual fashion they've increased costs while decreasing quality. The caretaker watching your kid and the 20 other kids certainly isn't making the $20/hr they are charging to watch your kid. Even though they are doing all the work. Even their managers aren't typically making much money. It's the owner of the facilities that's vacuuming up the profits. And because the only other competition is the weirdo lady storing kids in the cellar, it's a lucrative business. My wife did childcare. It's a major racket. Filled with over worked and underpaid employees and grift at every level. But hey, the owner was able to talk about how hard it was for them and how they actually got a really good deal on their porche (not joking) which is why nobody got raises. It's a low skill job with a lot of young people that like the idea of playing with kids/babies around. | |
| ▲ | codazoda 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My kids were young 25 years ago but the same was true for us then. | |
| ▲ | nineplay an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The financials of leaving the workforce rarely make sense to me. > There's tradeoffs in terms of career progression There's X years of lost income, lost retirement savings, lost raises and bonuses ( depending on career ), lost promotions, lost acquisition of new skills which will keep the stay-home parent up to date with the modern workforce once they leave. Teaching and nursing are still women dominated and famously supportive of women going back to work or starting work after staying home with the kids. For every other career path, good luck. How many people here would hire someone who'd be out of the workforce for 5, 10, 15 years without a second thought? |
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| ▲ | AnthonyMouse an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The same total work gets done by the same group of people in both cases, but the second measures as "better" for "the economy". It's worse than that, because it's not the same work. In Scenario B the person watching the kids isn't their parent so they don't have the same bond or interest in the child's long-term success. It also introduces a lot of additional inefficiencies because now you have trust and vetting issues, either the child or the person watching the child has to commute every day so that they're in the same place because they no longer live in the same house as each other, etc. |
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| ▲ | runako 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This analysis is incomplete for a couple of reasons: 1. any universal childcare scheme will involve groups larger than the median at-home familial group. Avery is watching ~1-2 kids, but if those kids are at creche, they are in a group of (say) ~4-5. 2. In much of the country, a) is financially out of reach for many couples due to cost of living generally being based around two-income households. |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | 4.5? At a US daycare those kids will be in a group of 20-40, with one or two adults supervising. | | |
| ▲ | runako 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Varies by state and age? My very red state does not allow a group of 40, full stop. The largest group allowed is for 3-year-olds, with a 1:15 adult:child ratio. For younger children, the ratios and group sizes are smaller. I was off on the 4-5 though. Ratio for < 1 yo is 1:6. Anyway, this is all to the point that it's nothing like the 1-2 in in-home care. There's a reason nannies are associated with richer people. | | |
| ▲ | mlhpdx 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Given the cost of out of home childcare, three kids more than pays for a nanny. Even two can. Not exactly a “rich” thing, just a matter of “scale” (in YC terms). |
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| ▲ | swivelmaster 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In California, at least, those numbers wouldn't be acceptable. My daughter's at an in-home daycare with IIRC five or six other kids. There are two adults there full-time, sometimes three. Two adults supervising 20-40 daycare-aged kids is simply not feasible. | |
| ▲ | sa46 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Depends on the state and child age. California is on the stricter end of legally mandated ratios: 0-18 months: 1:3 18 months to 3 years: 1:4 3-5 years: 1:5 | |
| ▲ | nradov 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Bullshit. Most US states have strict staff ratio limits for properly licensed daycare facilities. The exact ratios vary by state but typically this is something like 1:4 for infants up to 1:14 for school-age children. |
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| ▲ | Tade0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My SO spent a few months collecting the neighbour's daughter along with our own from kindergarten and in exchange the neighbour would make dinner for us. This arrangement started because the neighbours' shifts didn't align with kindergarten hours. At some point it struck me that this is all labour, but there was no money exchanged for the services rendered and certainly no taxes collected. Even worse - without this our neighbours would have to take an inordinate amount of time off, as getting a babysitter was too expensive. |
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| ▲ | caseysoftware 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > At some point it struck me that this is all labour, but there was no money exchanged for the services rendered and certainly no taxes collected. Even worse - without this our neighbours would have to take an inordinate amount of time off, as getting a babysitter was too expensive. How is this bad? Both your and their family benefited directly in terms of trading responsibilities and indirectly in building relationships between daughters and neighbors. Is your concern that neither of you paid taxes? |
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| ▲ | zeroonetwothree 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s not measured in GDP but it is measured. For example right now it’s estimated that household production is around 23% of GDP. So quite sizable. Part of the reason it’s not included in GDP is just that it’s not reliable to measure precisely so it’s not as valuable as a statistic for making monetary and fiscal policy decisions. |
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| ▲ | danorama 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But what if Avery has the skills and training to watch 5 kids at once in a group? |
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| ▲ | gcapu 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They are very different. In scenario A, the labor of watching the kids is untaxed. In Scenario B is Avery watches many kids and the effort per kid is reduced, but you get taxed. |
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| ▲ | jancsika 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Interesting game engine: 1. Each sim gets a minimum wage of $childcare dollars 2. Each sim gets a maximum wage of $childcare dollars |
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| ▲ | phantasmish 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have a suspicion a lot of the “why did wages stop keeping pace with the growth of the economy?” problem is because real productivity hasn’t been growing nearly as fast as our measures of it. But the measures are tied to ways for capitalists to extract more money, so that fake-growth does make line go up for owners. But there’s not nearly as much more actual work getting done as one might think from the numbers. I mean what, 10ish% of our entire GDP in the US, and IIRC that’s generously low, is being throwing in a fire from excessive spending on healthcare for effectively no actual benefit, versus peer states. And that’s just one fake-productivity issue (though one that affects the US more than most). But our GDP would drop if we fixed that! |
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| ▲ | somenameforme an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's inflation IMO. Wages started stagnating in the 70s which is exactly when the USD became completely unbacked (due to the end of Bretton Woods), enabling the government to go endlessly deep into debt, which we proceeded to do with gusto, sending inflation skyrocketing. Somebody who's earning 20% more today than they were 5 years ago would probably think they're on, at least, a reasonable career trajectory. In reality they would be earning less in real terms than they were 5 years ago, thanks to inflation. In times of low or no inflation it's impossible for this happen. But with inflation it becomes very difficult for workers to really appreciate how much they're earning, and it enables employers to even cut wages while their employees smile about receiving a 2% 'pay raise' when they should be raging about the pay cut they just took. |
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| ▲ | __turbobrew__ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In Scenario B the government gets to collect more tax revenues, and also has additional levers to influence certain behaviour (the government will tax you, but give you a tax break if you do Y). Also, the government can make your labor worth less by printing money and increasing inflation. |
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| ▲ | beowulfey 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It's not just about the economy, it is about freedom of choice. What does Max and Avery feel about their careers? Would they rather be working or watching kids? If one parent has to stay home, that might mean having to give up a good career. No one should be forced to choose between a career and kids, unless the goal is falling birthrates. |