| ▲ | fidotron 7 hours ago |
| > This is a very difficult combination to achieve, and yet that’s exactly what we’ve done for Valve with Mesa3D Turnip, a FOSS Vulkan driver for Qualcomm Adreno GPUs. Look at that. Something Qualcomm should have been doing. Much credit to Valve for pushing that out as FOSS. |
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| ▲ | zamalek 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Much credit to Valve for pushing that out as FOSS. Cynical: Valve doesn't sell hardware or operating systems, they sell games. These devices are merely another storefront. Optimistic: Valve has also figured out how to turn good will into a commodity. Blowing cash on Steam sales is a bit of a cultural centerpiece of the PC gaming community. Gabe has proven that you can make stupid amounts of money by [mostly] doing right by the consumer. I'm not sure if there's more to the secret source, her sauce, because we've yet to see another CEO pull their head out of their arse far enough to see how lucrative this approach can be: consumerism is fickle, fanaticism is loyal. |
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| ▲ | atomicnumber3 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is what I say a lot. Valve isn't even remotely close to having clean hands here. They invented loot crates. Hats. Etc. It's just that the bar is so INSANELY low - it's probably somewhere deep in the earth's core at this point - that valve looks like a fucking angel by being only VAGUELY greedy on occasion. When your competition is EA... it's not hard. | | |
| ▲ | rl3 a few seconds ago | parent | next [-] | | [delayed] | |
| ▲ | ecshafer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The difference is that valve loot crates/hats have also always been tradeable, and Ive never had to buy them or suffer a disasvantage. | |
| ▲ | tapoxi 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > They invented loot crates. Hats. Etc. Don't forget the part where they're encouraging kids to gamble with real money on Counter-Strike skins. They rely on an API that Valve freely provides and makes no effort to curtail. But they like Linux and give refunds so they get a free pass. | | |
| ▲ | jsheard 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > and give refunds so they get a free pass. They only begrudgingly conceded refunds in 2015 after the no-refunds policy they had maintained for 12 years was found to be illegal in Australia. | | |
| ▲ | mikkupikku 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Whatever the reason for their policy, it provides a nice sense of safety to Linux gamers. They can buy the game without worrying about compatibility; if the game doesn't run then its two clicks for an automated refund. | |
| ▲ | protimewaster 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Also, competing stores like EA's Origin had a pretty friendly refund policy before Valve did, helping to put some pressure on Valve. | |
| ▲ | nananana9 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They made the new refund policy worldwide, which they absolutely did not have to. | | |
| ▲ | jsheard 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but I imagine they saw the dominoes falling and realized that the optics of going down kicking and screaming in endless battles against basic consumer rights would be exceptionally bad. If they hadn't fully conceded then the EU would have been up their ass too before long. | | |
| ▲ | aranelsurion an hour ago | parent [-] | | > kicking and screaming in endless battles against basic consumer rights “Apple has entered the chat.” There are so many examples of other companies doing exactly that. |
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| ▲ | jchw 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I truly believe that Valve has two fundamental things working in their favor: Firstly: Despite inventing or at least popularizing a lot of new microtransaction concepts, they've just never been the greediest company in the business when it comes to microtransactions. Mobile gacha games have cleaned up their business quite a lot lately, with most of them being significantly less predatory than they used to be, but even back when TF2 introduced lootboxes and hats, the important thing was that the game was not pay to win; you could get all of the items in relatively short order just by playing, and the only benefit to paying was cosmetics. Contrast this to the earlier reign of Korean MMOs: pretty much all of them had egregious microtransactions. MapleStory, PangYa, Gunbound, etc, and even some current platforms like Roblox. Valve also came into this whole thing before lootboxes became the root of all evil, and while TF2's lootbox mechanism looks bad in retrospect, there was simply no stigma against a system like that, and it never felt like a big deal during the game's heyday. Just my opinion, but I strongly believe it to be true. Secondly: The most egregious things going on are not things Valve is directly involved in, they are merely complicit, in that they don't do much to curtail it. It's not even necessarily cynical to say that Valve is turning a blind eye, they benefit so significantly from the egregious behavior that it is hard to believe they are not influenced by this fact. But: It is consistent with Valve's behavior in other ways: Valve has taken a very hands-off stance in many places, and if it weren't for external factors it seems likely they would be even more hands-off than they are now. I think they genuinely take the position that it's not their job to enforce moral standards, and if you really do take this position seriously it is going to wind up looking extremely bad when you benefit from it. It's not so dissimilar from the position that Cloudflare tries to take with its services: it's hard to pick apart what may be people with power trying to uphold ideals even when it is optically poor versus greedy companies intentionally turning a blind eye because it might enrich them. (And yes, I do understand that these sites violate Valve's own ToS, but so does a lot of things on Steam Workshop and elsewhere. In many cases, they really do seem consistently lax as long as there isn't significant external pressure.) Despite these two things, there is a nagging feeling that every company gives me that I should never take anything but a cynical view on them, because almost all companies are basically lawnmowers now. But I really do not feel like I only give Valve the benefit of the doubt just because they support Linux; I actually feel like Valve has done a substantial amount to prove that they are not just another lawnmower. After all, while they definitely are substantially enriched by tolerating misuse of their APIs, they've probably also gotten themselves into tons of trouble by continuing to have a very hands-off attitude. In fact, it seems like owing to the relatively high standards people have for Valve, they get criticized and punished more for conduct than other companies. I mean seriously, Valve has gotten absolutely reamed for their attempt at adding an arbitration clause into their ToS, with consequences that lingered long after they removed and cancelled the arbitration clause. And I do hate that they even tried it -- but what's crazy to me is that it was already basically standard in big tech licensing agreements. Virtually everyone has an insane "you can't sue us" rule in their ToS. It numbs my mind to try to understand why Valve was one of the first and only companies to face punishment for this. It wouldn't numb my mind at all if it was happening to all of them, but plenty of these arbitration clauses persist today! So when I consider all of this, I think Valve is an alright company. They're not saints, but even if the bar wasn't so terribly low, they'd probably still be above average overall. That can be true simultaneously with them still having bad practices that we don't all like. | |
| ▲ | Hikikomori 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The same api users use? |
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| ▲ | gmanley 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Does it really matter if they take these consumer friendly actions because they know it will get them good press and dedicated consumers? The end result is the same. Like you touched on, for whatever reason, most large enough companies haven't seemed to figure out this obvious truth. I tend to believe it's because it's harder than it looks, once a company reaches a certain size. Now sure, they are by no means perfect, but I'd like to at least give them credit for being far better than any of the competition, no matter the rational behind it. | |
| ▲ | torginus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can install your own store or games on the devices if you want to without Steam. You could also take their work and build a custom distro or even a device without any trace of Steam whatsover. | |
| ▲ | madeofpalk 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They did the thing. Let’s judge their actions (which they have plenty of good and bad) | |
| ▲ | rustystump 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Valve is private right? One of the reasons they are not pure evil is because they have the luxury of not needing to chase the magic dragon of inf growth. They can focus on product. Bet your ass if they were public u would see the slimiest shit coming out to eek every possible percent so bonuses are made. I wish more companies were private for profit but not inf growth. |
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| ▲ | wronglebowski 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s incredible how bad driver support is the ARM space. I was looking into some of the various Ambernic handhelds and their Linux firmware. Despite their SoCs being advertised as having Vulkan 1.1 support every firmware for the device ships with it disabled. |
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| ▲ | ryandrake 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So many chipmakers and development board manufacturers see software/driver support as some kind of necessary evil--a chore that they grudgingly do because they have to, and they will do the absolute minimum amount of work, with barely enough quality to sell their hardware. | | |
| ▲ | makeitdouble 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Come to think of it, for them it is basically customer support. Most will want to outsource it as cheap as possible and/or push it to the community. They won't care if it takes an eternity for the customer to get their issues solved as long as new customers keep buying. And a few companies will see an opportunity to bring better customer care as an advantage and/or integrate it in their philosophy. | | |
| ▲ | LtWorf 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | And it's the reason why for several years I didn't consider buying anything that had an AMD card (not now, but for many many years it was insanity). | | |
| ▲ | doubled112 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Are you talking about the FGLRX drivers on Linux desktops? Or their Windows driver quality back then? I remember them both being pretty brutal. |
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| ▲ | ozarkerD 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It bewilders me. Software's gotta be easier than hardware right? Not that either is easy but as a software engineer, the engineering that goes into modern hardware mystifies me. | | |
| ▲ | bri3d 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's different definitions of "easy." With hardware, you have about one billion validation tests and QA processes, because when you're done, you're done and it had better work. Fixing an "issue" is very very expensive, and you want to get rid of them. However, this also makes the process more of, to stereotype, an "engineer's engineering" practice. It's very rules based, and if everything follows the rules and passes the tests, it's done. It doesn't matter how "hacky" or "badly architected" or "nasty" the input product is, when it works, it works. And, when it's done, it's done. On the other hand, software is highly human-oriented and subjective, and it's a continuous process. With Linux working the way it does, with an intentionally hostile kernel interface, driver software is even more so. With Linux drivers you basically chose to either get them upstreamed (a massive undertaking in personality management, but Valve's choice here), deal with maintaining them in perpetuity at enormous cost as every release will break them (not common), or give up and release a point in time snapshot and ride into the sunset (which is what most people do). I don't really think this is easier than hardware, it's just a different thing. | | |
| ▲ | generativenoise 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | From the outside looking in. It really seems like both fields are working around each other in weird ways, somewhat enforced by backwards compatibility and historical path dependence. The transition from more homogeneous architectures to the very heterogeneous and distributed architectures of today has never really been all that well accounted for, just lots of abstractions that have been papered over and work for the most part. Power management being the most common place these mismatches seem to surface. I do wonder if it will ever be economical to "fix" some of these lower level issues or if we are stuck on this path dependent trajectory like the recurrent laryngeal nerve in our bodies. |
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| ▲ | OneDeuxTriSeiGo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Software is easier than hardware in general but companies generally pay their hardware guys 25-50% less than their software counterparts | |
| ▲ | Melatonic 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Software can always ship a new update for bugs or features. Hardware not so much | |
| ▲ | IshKebab 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've done both. There are difficulties with both but overall I would say software is significantly more difficult than hardware. Most hardware is actually relatively simple (though hardware engineers do their best to turn it into an incomprehensible mess). Software can get pretty much arbitrarily complex. In a way I suspect it's because hardware engineers are mostly old fogies stuck in the 80s using 80s technologies like Verilog. They haven't evolved the tools that software developers have that enable them to write extremely complicated programs. I have hope for Veryl though. | | |
| ▲ | vrinsd an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Wow, super hard disagree, comment here sounds like the typical arrogance hardware engineers face from people in software who've never really done the job or have some superficial experiences. I won't blindly state "software is easier" but software is definitely easier to modify, iterate and fix, which is why sofware tools and resulting applications can evolve so fast. I have done both HW & SW, routinely do so, and switch between deep hardware jobs and deep software so I'm qualified to speak. If you're blinking a light or doing something with Bluetooth you can buy microcontrollers that have this capability and yes that hardware is simple. But have you ever DESIGNED a microcontroller, let alone a modern processor or complex system ? Getting something "simple" like a microcontroller to reliably start-up involves complex power sequencing, making sure an oscillator works, a phase-locked-loop that behaves correctly and that's just "to make a clock signal run at a frequency" we're not talking about implementing PCIe Gen5 or RDMA over 100Gbps Ethernet. Hardware engineers definitely welcome better tools but the cost of using an unproven tool or tool that might have "a few" corner cases resulting in your $5-million SoC not working is a hard risk to tolerate, so sadly(and to our pain) we end up using proven but arcane infrastructure. Software in contrast can evolve faster because you can "fix it in software". New tools can be readily tested, iterated on and deployed. | |
| ▲ | poly2it 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What do you think about Atopile? I'm not a hardware person yet, but these seem similar. https://atopile.io/ | | |
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| ▲ | andyferris 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But - doesn’t open sourcing it kinda make it someone else’s chore? Obviously it has to “work” at sale but ongoing maintenance could be shared with the community. |
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| ▲ | opan 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I would recommend the Anbernic RG353M running ROCKNIX, or for a more powerful device, Retroid's Pocket 5 running ROCKNIX. Most other options have awful software support and are just e-waste, unfortunately. | |
| ▲ | colechristensen 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They're stuck in the building model of making semi-custom SoCs for enormous corporations and releasing/developing drivers for them in extreme NDA environments. It's fine (or arguably not) for locked down corporate devices. Not so fine for building computers people want to use and own themselves. |
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| ▲ | robotnikman 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Glad too see that while Qualcomm tries to keep things closed shut tightly, Valve and their contractors are trying to do the opposite. |
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| ▲ | SequoiaHope 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I also just love that in open source you can call something “Turnip” because you’re not marketing it to anyone. |
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| ▲ | Melonai 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know, Turnip's a cute name and I wouldn't think twice before buying a product which is branded that way (as long as the actual product is cool of course!). |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | MindSpunk 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Qualcomm's Vulkan drivers are hot garbage, so I'm not surprised Turnip was seen as more desirable. I work with mobile GPUs for <AAA Engine>, have direct contacts with Qualcomm, and the drivers still find ways to disappoint even with my low expectations. |