| ▲ | alterom 8 hours ago |
| This article (and the title alone) is harmful. Adderall is not about increasing mental efficiency. What Adderall is about is: - helping with executive dysfunction for people who suffer from it. - allowing people with ADHD like me to function. To do the things that everyone else does, things that we want to do and need to do, but can't do because of the way our brains are wired. - increasing the lifespan of ADHD people who don't get help. Women with ADHD die about 9 years younger than those without ADHD [1]. - making our lives less painful, since every small task incurs pain, resulting in 3x depression rates [2] and alarmingly high suicidal ideation rates (50% of ADHD adults [3]). Please, please, educate yourself about ADHD and medication for it before writing something like this title. No, Aldous Huxley didn't. "predict" Adderall. To understand more, I've put together a resource which, I hope, will be easy enough to digest. Here's my experience of getting prescribed Adderall for my ADHD: https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication If I have attention deficit and I could write it, I hope you (and the author of the text we're discussing) could spare some attention to it before talking about Adderall, amphetamines, and other stimulants prescribed for ADHD. Thank you in advance. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/01/23/nx... [2] https://add.org/adhd-and-depression/ [3] https://crownviewpsych.com/blog/adhd-increased-risk-suicide-... |
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| ▲ | freetime2 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's long, but I listened to this podcast a while back with Peter Attia and Trenna Sutcliffe discussing Autism, ADHD, and Anxiety, and found that it really reduced the stigma I associated with medication for treatment of ADHD. In particular, understanding the risks of not effectively treating ADHD, in comparison with with the potential risks/benefits of the medication. That's not to say that we should only rely on medication - behavioral therapy (with parents involved too) should also play a part. https://peterattiamd.com/trennasutcliffe/ |
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| ▲ | hombre_fatal 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You could draw a parallel with GLP-1 agonists: people like to grandstand about how you shouldn't need it and how it's somehow cheating. As if it's not addressing a condition that people are suffering from right now, today. The stigma also seems to accidentally admit that things like executive function and food noise aren't equally distributed, thus some people could benefit from intervention. For example, if you've never been fat or you never binge eat or you've never procrastinated 15min of homework until 2am despite, then you're missing the irony when your solution for people who deal with these things is to try harder and to jump through hoops that you don't need to. | | | |
| ▲ | luckydata 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Behavioral therapy is only needed to make people feel better about taking amphetamines. It takes only a very cursory review of published reputable papers to realize there's nothing behavioral therapy can do to improve ADHD because as Russell Barkley says ADHD is a disability of doing, not knowing what to do. | | |
| ▲ | freetime2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If medication alone has worked for you, that's great! But I don't think your opinion matches the medical consensus. > For children with ADHD younger than 6 years of age, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends parent training in behavior management as the first line of treatment, before medication is tried. > For children 6 years of age and older, the recommendations include medication and behavior therapy together—parent training in behavior management for children up to age 12 and other types of behavior therapy and training for adolescents. Schools can be part of the treatment as well. AAP recommendations also include adding behavioral classroom intervention and school supports. [1] [1] https://www.cdc.gov/adhd/treatment/index.html | |
| ▲ | wisty 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not true. CBT works pretty well for adhd, studies are clear on this. But medication seems even better, as does a combination of therapy and medication. ADHD isn't unusual as far as the effectiveness of therapy, it's unusual in how well the medication is proven to work. |
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| ▲ | alterom 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Therapy, and most of all, understanding how our brains work make all the difference in the world. It's like realizing that the reason you've been getting stuck in the mud is not that you're a bad driver. It's just that people who don't are driving 4x4 trucks, and you've had a Nissan Z series sports car. Turns out, farms and off-road are simply not the right environment for your vehicle, and when that environment has some accomodations, like the paved surface of a highway or a race track, you're literally running circles around people in the most common vehicles. One profound effect of taking Adderall was feeling the clarity to understand that difference, and seeing the road instead of the endless mud fields in front of me. It does help to get things done, but around 30% of ADHD'ers aren't responsive to it. Understanding that you're getting stuck because your brain wasn't meant for that kind of driving, however, is universally useful. That's why I made that ADHD wiki [1], and keep posting links to it. It's an compilation of information that has helped me tremendously to understand the above; and I know this resource was helpful to others too in their journeys. My perspective is that of a late-diagnosed adult who's been completely unaware of what ADHD is, and thought that they can't possibly have an attention deficit because to get anything done, they have to hyperfocus on it. Again, learning that hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD and understanding how it works)l had a profound impact. And medication helped with that too: it's easier to not get stuck hyperfocused on the wrong thing with Adderall. Getting Adderall was like spraying WD-40 into rusty steering components. The immediate effect is that I can go where I want to go to, not the random direction my vehicle happens to face. The long-term effect though was understanding what makes it difficult to steer, and how to maintain it better. And even if I don't have power steering all the time like everyone else, I'm still better off with that experience. My point here that it's never about medication VERSUS therapy and knowledge. Medication is not an alternative, it's a BOOSTER. When it works, it's just dropping the difficulty from Nightmare to Medium/Hard. It doesn't play the game for you. The said, I'm very much happy the Nightmare mode days are behind me, and I'm very sad that the only reason I've been living my life that way is stigma and lack of information. When I took Adderall, I unexpectedly had to grieve the future I'll never get to have after being held back by all the pain I've been needlessly subjected to over the preceding three decades. That grief, too, is a common experience in ADHD late-diagnosed adults. Thank you for sharing that link, and contributing to the discussion and awareness <3 [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd | | |
| ▲ | luckydata 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm sorry but therapy does NOTHING for ADHD. I wish it did, it would be very useful to me, but it's just not the case. | | |
| ▲ | zinodaur 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm sorry that has been your experience, but I have had very different experiences - I'd encourage you to give it another shot, there is a lot left on the table for you |
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| ▲ | diob 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, that image is so funny, because it really is the difference between me being able to make a meal for myself vs needing something immediate. It also helped do wonders for my anxiety, which I previously treated with sertaline. I'm not the hyperactive sort of individual who has ADHD so I didn't get diagnosed until late in life, around a year or so ago, I'm just the "Inattentive" type. But finally I can take my meds, and do things that other people do without feeling like it's mental torture. And I can also remember to do important things, like my taxes, on time! It's so weird comparing my days on it to off it, when I happen to run out. I start getting a backlog of little things that my brain decided it couldn't take one minute to knock out. |
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| ▲ | alterom 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I could second every word of what you just said (as you already know after reading that page, of course). Just wanted to reiterate it for anyone who's reading this thread. |
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| ▲ | angadh 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The author of this piece—which I am—is reporting on Huxley’s MIT talk. He predicted a drug that improves mental efficiency/focus. And the talk discusses alternative non-pharmacological approaches. You are welcome to either actually read my piece or, better, listen to his talk. There is no judgment against the substance but a call for additional approaches to enhance a person. |
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| ▲ | sillywabbit 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I read your piece. Your title is clickbait, and you know it. | |
| ▲ | alterom 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >The author of this piece—which I am—is reporting on Huxley’s MIT talk. Thank you for joining this discussion. > You are welcome to either actually read my piece That's condescending; I have read your piece, and am responding directly to it. Consider avoiding using this tone. >He [Huxley] predicted a drug [Adderall] that improves mental efficiency/focus Thank you for re-iterating the erroneous point in your article that I'm calling out and objecting to. As an ADHD person and communicator who's being prescribed this drug, I want to bring your attention to a very simple fact: Adderall is NOT a drug that "improves mental efficiency". That's not what it does, and that's not what it's for. ADHD folks aren't being prescribed it because we are mentally deficient. And it's not helping us with focus either. It's helping us overcome Executive Dysfunction. We can focus harder than people without ADHD as it is; see: https://romankogan.net/adhd#Hyperfocus Adderall doesn't make us focus more, it helps us direct our focus to the right thing. > There is no judgment against the substance There is misinformation that contributes to the judgement being formed, as well as a false dichotomy with "non-pharmacological" approaches being an alternative. I hope you could understand the objection someone can raise to the discussion of "non-pharmacological" ALTERNATIVES to painkillers, antihistamines, or antibiotics, or chemotherapy. The point isn't that non-pharmacological approaches (or meds) are bad, it's that the discussion should be about how these approaches should be used IN CONCERT (WHEN the meds help). >but a call for additional approaches to enhance a person. For God's sake, please read the link I've shared about Adderall specifically: https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication Adderall is not a drug that "enhances a person". People when ADHD aren't in need of "enhancement". On that note: to really understand what Adderall is (and what my objection is about), you need to understand what it's for. I've put together a resource specifically to help people understand that: https://romankogan.net/adhd I hope that you will take advantage of it. It's about 100 pages when printed out, so I would suggest you start with the links on Hyperfocus and Medication, and come back here to reflect. Looking forward to hearing from you what you've learned about Adderall and ADHD after reading the comments in this discusson as well as the links. Thank you <3 |
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| ▲ | volf_ 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Exactly. Adderall has no positive relationship to my mental efficiency. It can in fact be a negative once your passed the 8 hour windows where its still in your system. At the end of the day, it makes it easier to not bounce between different things. It doesn't help me be smarter. It helps me drive to work without needing to listen to music and be on my phone. Modafinil... maybe. |
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| ▲ | itishappy 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The title is perhaps a bit unfortunate. I don't believe this is specifically about ADHD. Adderall is a stimulant with the effects Huxley predicted. It also happens to treat ADHD. I believe it's being used here in the former capacity. |
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| ▲ | latentsea 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The thing is, when you have ADHD and you take stimulants you don't feel any sort of high or however it makes people with normally functioning dopamine receptors feel, you just feel normal. | | |
| ▲ | itishappy 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh, I still feel a bit high. Particularly when I start taking them after a hiatus. Or up the dose. Anyway, here's what Huxley's had to say: > ... I have talked to pharmacologists about this matter, and a number of them say that it’s probably quite possible that it may be possible to, by pharmacological means, which will do no harm to the organism as a whole, to increase the span of attention, to increase the powers of concentration, perhaps to cut down on the necessity for sleep, and the various other things which may lead to a very considerable increase in general mental efficiency. No high mentioned. Remarkably accurate to my experience. |
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| ▲ | alterom 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Adderall is a stimulant with the effects Huxley predicted. That's exactly my point: it is NOT. Not for the people Adderall is prescribed to and was developed for. See: https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication >I don't believe this is specifically about ADHD. There's nothing to believe in here. Adderall is a drug that's specifically about ADHD. It's a stimulant that helps people with ADHD overcome executive dysfunction: https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Executive%20Dysfunction You can't talk about Adderall without talking about ADHD just like you can't talk about allergy pills without talking about allergies, or talk about eyeglasses without talking about myopia. > It also happens to treat ADHD NO. Please reconsider sharing this sentiment. Adderall is a drug for treating ADHD that also happens to be abused by people thinking it'll have the "effects Huxley predicted" (enhancing thinking efficiency). It does not; that's the reason why it's a controlled substance. When abused, it will wreck your brain. As an analogy: glasses make people with myopia see better, but wearing glasses without prescription is a very bad idea. >I believe it's being used here in the former capacity. I understand this, and it's a misconception I'm trying to dispel. With evidence and scientific understanding, mind you, and not just with vibes about thinking what Adderall is. Speaking of which, I forgot to take it, which means I'm about to have my breakfast at 5PM because I couldn't bring myself to do the eating task earlier. This is what Adderall is for. >The title is perhaps a bit unfortunate. The title is repeated verbatim in the article, whose author has kindly replied in this thread and re-stated it twice (as did you), as if I weren't directly addressing the fallacious point that the author employed to attract attention to Huxley's lecture (which doesn't need such advertising in the first place). It's not the title that's a bit unfortunate. It's the mention of Adderall, and the myth that it's a "brain-enhancing" drug. If it were, it'd be given to everyone already, and perhaps there'd be fewer people spreading vibe-based falsities in post titles, but I digress. The point is: ============== Adderall does NOT enhance mental efficiency, as Huxley's fantasized drug would. Adderall HELPS people with ADHD overcome EXECUTIVE DYSFUNCTION. That's what it's for. That's what it DOES. If you take it for ANYTHING ELSE, you will NOT get the intended result, and you will likely FUCK YOURSELF UP. Spreading the MISCONCEPTION that Adderall is a "brain-enhancing” drug (as the author opined in the comments here) drives the ABUSE of this medication, which HARMS people and makes ADHD harder to obtain for people who NEED it to function. ======== I hope I've succeeded in bringing your attention to this issue. If this hasn't changed your point of view, please let me know what else I can elaborate on. Thank you <3 | | |
| ▲ | itishappy 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You can't talk about Adderall without talking about ADHD... Huxley never mentions Adderall, and neither Huxley nor the article mention ADHD. I'm not trying to argue with your points about how Adderall relates to ADHD. I agree! I empathize! I'm arguing that this is not about how Adderall relates to ADHD. I don't think our experience is the intended context. The talk is mostly about tailoring learning to the individual. I think you'd find it's points quite agreeable! > you will likely FUCK YOURSELF UP. To be fair, there's evidence it does the same to us. |
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| ▲ | UniverseHacker 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thank you for writing this. There are so many misconceptions about what ADHD is and how it’s treatments work. |
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| ▲ | tootie 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Adderall also treats excessive daytime sleepiness associated with narcolepsy and I'd be a shambolic zombie without it. It's downright insulting when people think pharmaceuticals are some kind of shortcut to avoid some more disciplined approach. It's medicine to treat illness. Any medicine can be abused or misused but some of us just really need it to correct dysfunction. |
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| ▲ | d4mi3n 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Here here. I also have ADHD though I couldn’t use stimulant medications due to bad reactions to it, but I’ve had success with non-stimulant medications (Straterra aka atomoxetine [1]). A big thing I struggled with prior to medical treatment that I don’t often hear discussed about ADHd was rejection sensitivity. For those unfamiliar: imagine a time someone said something that hurt your feelings or caused a strong emotional reaction. Now imagine that as a routine emotional response to day to day interactions. Feeling intensely sad, irritated, insulted, etc. to extents completely o it of proportion to whatever was said or even implied. It’s brutal. It contributes to a lot of depression and social anxiety for folks with ADHD. It doesn’t matter if you’re aware of the response being disproportionate—you get to go on that emotional roller coaster whenever somebody says they don’t care for your favorite food, accidentally cut you off in a conversation, or the day just turns out differently than you were expecting. Medical treatment makes a huge difference—in my particular case the difference between feeling like I had the emotional regulation of a toddler and not needing to constantly question every emotion I felt prior to responding to things I was reacting to. Stimulant medications didn’t work for me, but they do this for most people with ADHD (more effectively, too!) and like alterom it saddens me whenever FUD like this crops up. |
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| ▲ | alterom 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thanks for writing this comment and raising awareness! Rejection sensitivity is neurodivergent trait that's not exclusive to ADHD, but the way it manifests with ADHD can be truly life-derailing. Learning about it helped me a lot to deal with it (in particular, externalizing that emotion as a trait and not what me is). I wrote about it too in that wiki. Here's my experience with rejection sensitivity in the ADHD context: https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Rejection%20Sensitivity |
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| ▲ | logicprog 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thank you so much for this. I'm REALLY tired of anti ADHD medication propaganda, it's anti intellectual nonsense. |
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| ▲ | Aeglaecia 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd argue that it is nonsense to treat symptoms instead of the cause (of an issue) , but actually doing just that is quite intellectual when a bunch of money stands to be made | | |
| ▲ | UniverseHacker 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That is nonsense, it makes perfect sense to treat symptoms when it works and lessens those symptoms. Most of medicine works that way- our understanding of biology is primitive, and we often cannot identify or treat underlining causes. | |
| ▲ | alterom 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >I'd argue that it is nonsense to treat symptoms instead of the cause (of an issue) , but actually doing just that is quite intellectual when a bunch of money stands to be made What specifically are you talking about here? It appears to me that your comment is an expression of vibe with zero information content. There's no dichotomy between treating symptoms and cause even when the cause is treatable (which isn't the case with ADHD; it's a neurotype, with differences showing on brain scan levels) — and that's setting aside the discussion of whether it's something we need to "treat" in the first place. We still have painkillers for people who need them while they are getting treatment. We still have meds for runny noses, we still have Tylenol for fever, even though these are merely symptoms. We still have pills for allergies. And on that note: the symptoms (such as fever and allergic reactions) can and do kill people. Please reconsider your comment. | | |
| ▲ | Aeglaecia 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | protocolture 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >modern western society exhibits a plethora of conditions that are likely to result in the manifestation of adhd behaviours in non adhd individuals Maybe. >a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd Correct. >taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd We arent talking about productivity gains. >for me to reconsider my comment you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward "Doping up" is intentionally emotive language and a misrepresentation. >to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction You dont even clearly state your complaint. Its about patient outcomes, not "society" but you are implying they are also a social good. Great. The best path forward is to reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. These drugs, reduce the severity of peoples illnesses. People with these illnesses, have a better life due to the medication. Why that upsets you is a deeply internal problem to you, not a problem with society or medicine. | | |
| ▲ | Aeglaecia 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | taking the moral high ground then degenerating the argument to personal accusations , thanks for the laugh homie i needed it | | |
| ▲ | protocolture 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | youre very close to freeing yourself but the stupid has an iron grip on your thoughts , i wish you all the best and hope that things may settle down | | |
| ▲ | Aeglaecia an hour ago | parent [-] | | by all means keep jacking up the vitriol , it makes things even funnier when im the one who ends up getting censored | | |
| ▲ | protocolture an hour ago | parent [-] | | >censored Well it would be a net social good. But I expect I will see a different account with vastly the same posting style back here next time ADHD comes up, spewing the same nonsense. |
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| ▲ | alterom 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There were no personal accusations in the comment you're responding to. |
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| ▲ | jdub 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Correctly prescribed stimulants aren't "doping up the populace", and ADHD existed long before it was described. | |
| ▲ | alterom 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So, instead of reading what I wrote, you choose to remain willfully ignorant. I am not responding further for your sake, but for the sake of those who read this thread. > taking speed makes anyone more productive, not just those with adhd. Speed (methamphetamine) has the same relationship to Adderall (dextroamphetamines) as methanol does to ethanol; a difference in methyl group. Ethanol (aka alcohol) is commonly used for recreational purposes. If you think Adderall is the same thing as "speed", I hope you wouldn't mind drinking a glass of methanol to prove the point that chemically similar substances have similar effects. > modern western society exhibits a plethora of conditions that are likely to result in the manifestation of adhd behaviours in non adhd individuals Which is why the diagnostic criteria for ADHD require a lifelong manifestation of ADHD symptoms. Notice how you say behaviors, not symptoms or traits, i.e. how people act, and not how they feel, which difficulties they face, what cost they bear, and so on. The behavior of an ADHD individual might be no different from one without ADHD. We can be on time, for example. It is just immensely more difficult for us, just like it's difficult for someone with a broken leg that didn't quite heal to walk. And yes, anyone can bump their toe on a table leg and experience pain for a while. That doesn't mean that people with broken legs don't exist. >a brain scan is not part of the diagnostic criteria for labelling adhd. It isn't, because we have cheaper and more reliable ways. The difference is there though. > you would have to provide a convincing argument that doping up the populace is objectively the best path forward - to me it seems that this is not the best path forward, rather one that serves to minimize societal friction. Believing that "doping up the populace" is what's taking place is a delusion that I can't address in the same way that I can't address the belief that the Loch Ness monster caused the 2019 Coronavirus pandemic. Unfortunately, your worldview seem to be as strongly detached from reality as you are convinced about the veracity of your unshakable beliefs. But again, if you sincerely believe people taking Adderall are taking speed, you really could save a lot on booze by drinking methanol instead. Do let us know how that goes. | | |
| ▲ | Aeglaecia 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | youre very close to freeing yourself but the speed has an iron grip on your thoughts , i wish you all the best and hope that things may settle down | | |
| ▲ | alterom an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | >youre very close to freeing yourself but the speed has an iron grip on your thoughts , i wish you all the best and hope that things may settle down Oh my. I was going to ask if you've drank a glass of methanol to argue that Adderall and speed the same thing, as I suggested... but judging my the content of your comments, you might have had more than one already. | | |
| ▲ | Aeglaecia 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | we could choose to produce an environment that handles normal human behaviour , but instead we label normal human behaviour as dissonant , its an idea so simple yet one so violently opposed , such violence only spurs me on to champion the idea |
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| ▲ | throwuxiytayq 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You settle down, ok? |
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| ▲ | rozal 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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