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bawolff 20 hours ago

How is that only a $500,000 fine???

Stopping when inspectors are there only to restart once they leave is willful enough that you wonder why this doesn't go into criminal liability?

lelandfe 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

ProPublica's reporting has been dogging Boring's heels in Las Vegas on this, I've been reading them religiously. It appears that the city views this project as Cool™ and opts either to not fine or fine pittances for constant violations.

This was their big expose back in January: https://www.propublica.org/article/elon-musk-boring-company-...

ETH_start 19 hours ago | parent [-]

ProPublica is extremely left-wing. That doesn't imply that their journalism is low-quality or inaccurate, but it does suggest that their choice of stories will be colored by that ideological/establishment-friendly bent. You won't see them investigating the political influence exerted by public sector unions for example.

Their X feed gives a pretty clear picture of that:

https://x.com/propublica

CursedSilicon 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Don't dump toxic waste into fucking manholes" is "left-wing" now?

You're gonna have a real head spin moment when you find out who founded the EPA!

bawolff 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Its more basic then that. This is follow laws as they are written. It should not be a left/right issue. If you dont like a law, that's why its a democracy.

ETH_start 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Of course not. But there are a myriad of wrong-doings from all sectors of the economy. Choosing to focus exclusively on the wrongdoings of interests that are obstacles to the coalition of unions, bureaucracies, and allied media that economically benefit from ever-increasing public spending (from 20% of GDP in 1950 to 38% today) is a case of shaping public opinion by selection.

port11 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Pure whataboutism, come on. Yes, other things deserve investigation, but so does this. And there's plenty of right-wing media — in fact I'd argue too much such that there's a lack of balance in US media.

ETH_start 13 hours ago | parent [-]

>Yes, other things deserve investigation, but so does this.

I was not trying to imply that this does not deserve investigation. I just thought that it was relevant to point out the agenda or ideological bias of the source because it helps to know these kinds of things.

>And there's plenty of right-wing media — in fact I'd argue too much such that there's a lack of balance in US media.

Journalists are overwhelmingly left-wing in their ideological leanings.

The result is something you could call "silence by selection": investigative reporting on corporate or conservative money is constant, but similar investigations of public-sector unions’ financial pipelines, pensions, and political leverage are almost non existent.

When mainstream coverage discusses "special interests", it targets corporations or billionaires, not the public-sector class which is the single most powerful political bloc in every advanced Western democracy (and which is the reason why every major urban area in the US is controlled by Democrats).

ndsipa_pomu 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> I was not trying to imply that this does not deserve investigation. I just thought that it was relevant to point out the agenda or ideological bias of the source because it helps to know these kinds of things.

As noble as your intentions may be, it's unnecessary and muddies the conversation if you keep adding cherry-picked information about your view of the politics of those involved.

Also, "left-wing" and "right-wing" are not particularly useful terms as they are ill defined and vary from place to place (e.g. the U.S. left-wing is considered very right-wing in most of Europe).

JumpCrisscross 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> That doesn't imply that their journalism is low-quality or inaccurate

Anecdote: in some early reporting, I noticed a citation to a paper that didn’t support the purported argument. (It said the opposite.)

I emailed the author, one of the founding journalists at Pro Publica and an award winner. He basically thanked me for the feedback and then left the article unchanged.

Pro Publica is reputable for a small publication. But they are not authoritative.

throwworhtthrow 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Be specific. Which article and which citation? Otherwise this is insinuation or even slander.

Edit to add: what you've done here is defame every member of the ProPublica staff, past and present (because you don't name a particular writer or article). There is no way for anyone from ProPublica to refute this.

If you want to critique ProPublica honestly, quote a particular statement they've published.

JumpCrisscross 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Be specific. Which article and which citation? Otherwise this is insinuation or even slander

I’m literally calling out a liar. Not sure how you missed that.

But sure. This is the article [1]. Excerpt from my e-mail to the author:

“I came across your post through Dealbook today. In your article you mention that it is ‘argued that [Sarbanes-Oxley] would hurt initial public offerings, which it didn’t.’ You link through to a working paper on the SSRN at ‘didn't’. From the paper linked to:

‘Although the 2002 Sarbanes-Oxley Act and the 2003 Global Settlement have reduced the attractiveness of being public for small companies, we argue that the more fundamental problem is the increased inability of small companies to become and remain profitable.’

The paper, in whole, posits that structural changes in the attractiveness of exit by acquisition versus IPO are the salient factor behind a secular decrease in IPO activity…Furthermore, the paper directly concedes (see quote above) that SOX negatively impacted IPO activity. This is not how you represented it in your article.”

Eisinger’s response: “Thanks, [JumpCrisscross], for your thoughts.”

> what you've done here is defame every member of the ProPublica staff, past and present (because you don't name a particular writer or article)

I’m calling Jesse Eisinger unreliable. Since he’s a founder in good standing at Pro Publica, I’m calling out the publication. Honest journalists don’t get free passes for negligent or crooked bosses.

Pro Publica is worth reading. It is not authoritative—it does not hold itself up to journalistic standards, a rot which starts at the top.

(I’ve used the above exchange to block Pro Publica from influencing lawmaking on Cheyenne, Albany, Sacramento and D.C. I would want anything they say independently corroborated before being acted on.)

[1] https://www.propublica.org/article/the-sox-win-how-financial...

throwworhtthrow 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Thank you for this. Count me as one more person who's been influenced by your exchange with Eisinger.

Edit: My layperson reading of the source makes me think the ProPublica article would be accurate if its link to the source had the text "which it mostly didn't" rather than "which it didn't". I don't have a problem with the article as it's written, but this is a good reminder that journalists writing for a general audience will often omit qualifiers, sacrificing accuracy for readability. (I, on the other hand, cling dearly to my qualifiers.)

Timshel 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not sure where you extract is supposed to come from, the paper argue that

> Many have blamed the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 and the 2003 Global Settlement’s effects on analyst coverage for the decline in IPO activity. We find very little support for the conventional wisdom, and offer an alternative explanation

No wonder you got ignored ..

Edit: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1954788

JumpCrisscross 15 hours ago | parent [-]

> Not sure where you extract is supposed to come from

The paper. The one that was cited. (It was a working paper at the time.)

Nevertheless, your quote drives the point home. The paper rejects “the conventional wisdom” which “states that low public market prices are due to either lower valuations caused by the lack of analyst coverage, or to lower earnings as a public firm because of SOX and other costs.”

The Pro Publica article says that paper shows SOX did not reduce IPO volumes. That’s false. The earnings channel is rejected. But otherwise, the paper is about acquisition versus IPO.

It’s understandable incompetence. It turns into a lie when one digs in after the error is pointed out.

> No wonder you got ignored ..

If a journalist ignoring me means I can let their work be ignored in multiple state and national capitals, I will take it as a win.

(And with the benefit of hindsight, the article was dead wrong. I built a bit of a career on the private markets starting in 2012, as it happens.)

ETH_start 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm just speculating here, but it could be that he doesn't want to risk doxing himself. If he emailed them from his personal email address, which contains his real name, the journalist could out him.

throwworhtthrow 18 hours ago | parent [-]

It would be extremely counterproductive for a ProPublica writer to maliciously dox someone who pointed out a logical inconsistency in their writing, if the writer's intent is to bolster their own trustworthiness. Any journalist crazy enough to do this would be forever out of a job because no source would ever speak to them again.

ETH_start 17 hours ago | parent [-]

There's a lot of paranoia out there so this is good to know.

httpsoverdns 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What exactly was thing the subject matter? Was it something he could have reasonably disagreed with?

JumpCrisscross 17 hours ago | parent [-]

> Was it something he could have reasonably disagreed with?

No. He cited a paper showing the opposite effect from what he claimed it to be.

16 hours ago | parent [-]
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hvb2 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why does left or right even matter? This is ordinary stuff that should be covered?

If you've read the article, you can see how

- they were told to stop, and refused

- lied about what they did to make the problem look smaller

- reversed corrective action as soon as they thought the inspectors left

This has nothing to do with bias. A right wing outlet should've covered this too. They might have used some different words but I don't see how this can be anything other than intentional. In the end their own legal department had to step in and acknowledge that they won't do any other projects before putting in remediations.

ETH_start 17 hours ago | parent [-]

The systematic bias arises from story selection, not from whether a specific investigation is accurate.

So I am absolutely not suggesting this story is not accurate or that Boring Company isn't at fault.

In the long run selective coverage creates an inaccurate picture of reality: constant stories about private greed, almost none about institutional self-dealing within the state.

hvb2 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So what outlet would choose to not cover this? One that doesn't care?

I think you misunderstand the whole concept of journalism. They report, you interpret. Left wing or right wing might matter in what words they choose, to influence your perception.

Not reporting something like this is not bias, that's just not caring.

bawolff 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Given that the current president is right wing, wouldn't the left have a vested interest in talking about self-dealing in the state?

Regardless, we are on a news aggregator here. Whatever selection bias this source has should be counteracted by hn drawing from many sources. At least on the source level. HN is going to of course be biased towards stories hn finds interesting.

ETH_start 12 hours ago | parent [-]

>Given that the current president is right wing, wouldn't the left have a vested interest in talking about self-dealing in the state?

If there wasn't a permanent bureaucracy of sorts, then yes, but in this case there is in fact a permanent bureaucracy, what some call the deep state, which is a constant regardless of which party is in power. And this political bloc overwhelmingly supports the Democrats and is threatened by potential cuts from Republicans.

Covering self-dealing within the state would give the Republicans' efforts to cut some of these programs and departments moral legitimacy in the public eye, so left-wing news sources would not do that.

therobots927 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Corporations are never held accountable in America

latch 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Isn't the problem exactly the opposite? A corporation has personhood which shields its executives?

therobots927 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Fair enough. That’s a more accurate way of putting it. Corporations are shields for the ruling elite to get away with pretty much anything. And in addition to that the corporation can be sued by shareholders if it doesn’t maximize shareholder value by externalizing costs. It’s the kind of policy that would be very popular among cancer cells.

TulliusCicero 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's rare for even blatant misconduct of this kind by a company to result in criminal charges.

Which is stupid, obviously. If it's intentional/willful breaking of the law, send them to jail the same way you would for an individual.

18 hours ago | parent [-]
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PeterHolzwarth 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fines start small, then get big.

viraptor 19 hours ago | parent [-]

That's the idea in general, but show us how that applies to this company. They're at ~800 violations https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/elon-musks-boring-compan...

terminalshort 18 hours ago | parent [-]

They didn't hire an inspector, and they counted each day they didn't hire the inspector as 700 different violations, so I don't really trust their reporting on this.

Larrikin 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Isn't that atleast one violation per day? 800 assumes they were perfect and committed zero violations other than not having an inspector, so it's inaccurate because it probably is undercounting significantly.

viraptor 17 hours ago | parent [-]

It's ~700 for inspections and ~100 for other things. Which I'm not sure why would anyone discount as not important. Especially since they may be avoiding more fines due to missing inspections.

17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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ulfw 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you know who runs that company???

charcircuit 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To be fair it's over 3 times the amount of damage they caused, so that is a pretty big profit margin on cleaning up the mess.

hvb2 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Profit margin? What a weird point of view.

They should just follow the rules, period. And any fine should be larger than the amount of money they saved by their illegal behavior and cover the corrective actions.

Here's a thought experiment. They're tunneling beneath your house and, because they skip all normal precautions, your house collapses. Sure, you don't mind as long as they're fined a decent amount, right?

charcircuit 14 hours ago | parent [-]

>What a weird point of view.

It's not weird. It would be bad if the government was unable to have the funds to clean up the damage. And when someone is charging you with >300% profit margins, that's a sign that you should find another way to solve the issue.

>Sure, you don't mind as long as they're fined a decent amount, right?

I would mind, but I would feel that I was made whole if they paid me >3x the damages to the house.

hvb2 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Treating environmental law as a way to make money is, odd. If the financial Harm is minimal that implies that in your worldview it shouldn't be punished?

You must view jails and prisons as a terrible outcome, since you're essentially paying money to punish someone.

charcircuit 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

>If the financial Harm is minimal that implies that in your worldview it shouldn't be punished?

Yes. If I step on a patch of grass technically that may damage the grass, but I don't think such an action should be punished since the amount of damage is very small.

>You must view jails and prisons as a terrible outcome, since you're essentially paying money to punish someone.

No, I view it as a positive outcome as it removes malicous actors from the system.

dns_snek 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let's take this bizarre worldview to its logical conclusion, is the amount of damage that a school shooter causes equivalent to the sum of funeral costs and school repair costs?

Should they also get to walk away if they just pay 3 times the cost of "cleaning up the mess"? That's a pretty big profit margin, no?

charcircuit 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, they should be able to walk away from the damages of destruction of property and funerals. They would not be able to walkway from the murder charges.

In this scenario disposing of the waste = dealing with the bodies and property damage and digging a tunnel = shooting people within a school. I don't the scenario is a good analog since it was legal to dig the tunnel.

dns_snek 14 hours ago | parent [-]

They dumped toxic waste that causes chemical burns into the system which runs to the natural waterways.

> Our largest treatment facility, the Flamingo Water Resource Center, ensures wastewater is treated to the highest standard allowing the reclaimed water to be discharged back into Lake Mead. Lake Mead is the drinking water source for more than 95% of the population and businesses in Clark County.

https://www.cleanwaterteam.com/about-us/who-we-are

They keep walking away from attempted murder charges by just paying a fine.

charcircuit 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I would assume treating to the highest standard would mean they remove things such as chemicals that cause chemical burns from the water which would mean it doesn't reach the natural waterways.

dns_snek 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Why do you assume that society would subsidize your chemical waste processing? Why do you feel entitled to break laws without consequence?

The system is clearly designed to transport and treat typical sewer water and not arbitrary toxic, corrosive, volatile, or otherwise undesirable chemicals from commercial operations, for pretty obvious reasons.

charcircuit 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

>society would subsidize

If doing something makes a profit, you don't need to subsidize it.

>Why do you feel entitled to break laws without consequence?

I have never stated that. I am actually for the opposite that with AI we should scale law enforcement to almost always be able to catch people violating laws. My initial comment in this thread is providing a contrasting view point about how the fine is a fair punishment when viewed in relation to how much damage is being caused. I wanted to provide contrast on how the fine's amount could make sense.

19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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