| ▲ | adeptima 6 hours ago |
| 10+ years in Japan. The message here is much deeper from my perspective. “Let’s jump on the call” is not the solution. The guy was stripped off of his face. I love Japan for being human. Small business bar or restaurant with 3 tables. Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution… the process was pushed on his head. Google nemawashi decision making process |
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| ▲ | alwa 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I did as you suggested with respect to “nemawashi.” I read about that and “ringi,” and I’m glad I did. Even to get just the gist of what I’m sure is a thin interpretation: that nemawashi refers to a “laying-the-groundwork” process of circulating a proposal between peer-level counterparts, before formalizing it and proposing to act on it. Much less crashing in with it in the form of a “SumoBot,” as Mozilla seems to have done to its non-English communities… (with the disclaimer that I have zero insight into Mozilla’s process here outside of this writer’s account). It puts a name to a considerate consensus-based way to approach change, that seems humane (and effective) in any culture—leave it to the Japanese to have a specific term for it… |
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| ▲ | martin_henk 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | common sense... no real need for digging into japanese culture and so on. really no idea why Mozilla is so disrespectful to it's volunteers. well, that sweet 400m a year from Google... no need for volunteers anymore, eh | | |
| ▲ | alwa 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | For sure. Common sense <> common, etc… although it does seem relevant that it was specifically a Japanese-language sub-community who were reacting here. I have to say it feels like a really familiar, NGO-flavored disrespect, though: “we’re doing this favor for underrepresented language communities,” regardless of whether they want/need it or not. “There’s only X number of you having to shoulder the load in XX sub-community, don’t you want us to impose a bunch of ‘help’?” Well, no, if the choice is between a formidable volume of slop and a smaller but well-executed volume of volunteer labor-of-love… (…I say as a person very much without all sides of the story, and shooting from the hip a bit. I don’t mean to impugn anybody’s intentions, and I imagine at the end of the day we’re all on the same side here.) | | |
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| ▲ | TheJoeMan 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That reminds me of internet RFC’s… like by the time they are formally published, no the author is not interested in your “comment”. | | |
| ▲ | Arnt 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've written a few RFCs. For any RFC, there will be a "comment" after publication from someone who did not take earlier comments seriously enough to read them. | | | |
| ▲ | alwa 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | …and, for that matter, there was an earlier draft phase where the author was R’ing For your C. And you could have jumped in then and been more-or-less welcome. | | |
| ▲ | hunter2_ 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sounds like RFC ought to be the name of that draft phase, rather than a name encompassing all phases, especially not the final phase in which C's are no longer R'd. | | |
| ▲ | eesmith 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Times changed. Historical names did not. "many of the early RFCs were actual Requests for Comments and were titled as such to avoid sounding too declarative and to encourage discussion.[8][9] The RFC leaves questions open and is written in a less formal style. This less formal style is now typical of Internet Draft documents, the precursor step before being approved as an RFC." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments |
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| ▲ | p0w3n3d 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I predict that these times of excessive trust in AI during decision making will be written in history books at some point of time. Providing that there will be books at all. I already suspect that Duolingo destroyed real people's recording of Spanish conversations and replaced them with AI. For example I can quite often hear continental Spanish accent which has never been taught to me before (as I started with Duolingo as a freshman) - it used to be always American Spanish accent. Wrongly cut conversions is another matter. | |
| ▲ | pengaru 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We Americans call this garnering buy-in. | |
| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | rester324 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I am not sure I am buying this. There is nothing human about japanese business procedures. Most japanese business procedures usually only serve micro managing purposes, and the nemawashi procedure is basically stripping people who were not consulted before, from giving their honest input and impact in the decision making. In my opinion it creates more problems than it solves |
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| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | jesterson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution If you have a better solution to correct an error or solve a problem than having a call/meeting and openly discuss situation and possible resolutions - I would love to know about that. |
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| ▲ | port11 an hour ago | parent [-] | | The response was condescending and very… American. The call ensures what, that you'll be more receiving to their grievances? That nothing is on the record? A lot of people don't want to jump in calls, ever. The initial response should've validated that the community feels slighted, that they should've brought them onboard for the decision making, etc. Acknowledging the mistake immediately seems like a good start. | | |
| ▲ | jesterson 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Ok, how the perfect reaction would be if you were at charge? I understand people have sympathy inclination to victims, so everyone would assume the victim is good and other side is bad. I have worked long enough with japanese people knowing they can throw unpredictable tantrums. As a manager, what would be your best course of action to deal with similar situation? | | |
| ▲ | port11 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Acknowledging the mistake immediately seems like a good start, as I've said. Life doesn't always have to be from the perspective from “a manager”, these are community volunteers doing untold hours of unpaid work. Just be a person, whose acquaintance is upset you replaced their handmade postcard with an AI-generated one. | | |
| ▲ | jesterson 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Acknowledging a mistake, no matter genuinely or not, doesn't solve the situation. It just makes victim feel good a bit. Agree on manager view, I was rather putting situation in a wrong perspective. It doesn't change the questions though - what would you do to resolve the situation (not to make the other side feel good)? |
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| ▲ | ekianjo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > nemawashi Long time in Japan too, I would not consider newamashi as being Japan's strengths. |
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| ▲ | krick 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I can imagine what you mean, but since I am not in Japan, it would be interesting why you feel that way. | | |
| ▲ | rtpg 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | long and slow consensus building that weighs existing stakeholder's opinions heavily vs doing "the right thing" from the outset. So you move slowly and end up having very annoying conversations and compromises instead of just pushing something through. And the formal process is just a formality anyways, so then anyone not in the informal chatter just gets to experience the capriciousness anyways The sort of consensus building ultimately involves having to do stuff to make people's opinions feel taken care of, even if their concerns are outright wrong. And you end up having to make some awkward deals. Like with all this "Japanese business culture" stuff though, I feel like it's pretty universal in some degrees or another everywhere. Who's out there just doing things without getting _any_ form of backchannel checking first? Who wants to be surprised at random announcements from people you're working with? Apart from Musk types. But of course some people are very comfortable just ripping the band aid off and putting people in awkward spots, because "of course" they have the right opinion and plan already. Why context matters in judging whether some practice is good or not. | | |
| ▲ | ssivark 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Peter Drucker has an interesting analysis of the "American" -vs- "Japanese" styles of decision-making + alignment, presenting a complementary perspective: https://www.joaomordomo.com/files/books/ebooks/Peter%20Druck... IMHO the only correct way to measure the effectiveness of decision making is from the quality of executed outcomes. It is somewhat nonsensical to sever decisions from execution, and claim that decisions have been made rapidly if the decision doesn't lend itself to crisp execution. Without that, decisions are merely intentions. | |
| ▲ | moonlet 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Who cares if they’re wrong? The point is respect for their opinions and feelings since you’ll have to work with them for twenty years. If you respect them, you get to do what you want to do and they won’t fuck with you or shoot down your proposal. To be clear this is Japan we’re talking about with the twenty years part. The same thing applies in the US but on smaller timescales though. If people feel appreciated and respected and you have good relationships, they will basically back whatever you want. | | |
| ▲ | rtpg an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | To be clear I'm describing a point of view, but not always ascribing to it. I tend to lean towards thinking backchanneling makes sense as a general vibe, if only because it's a way of doing things that lets people have dignity, and the costs _can be_ low. | |
| ▲ | rester324 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think this is a very naive take. Japanese people will blame you for any failure regardless if you respect them or not. And many times failures happen in japan exactly because people are sitting around doing nothing without acting even when it's urgent to make decision. Backstabbing and toxicity is the major feature of japanese business culture |
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| ▲ | armada651 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Move fast and break stuff didn't work out much better though. | | |
| ▲ | rtpg 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah sure, I feel like back channeling stuff is generally just the respectful thing to do, so I'm not on the side of the debate I'm expanding upon in most cases. Just that lacking context one really can't make that many blanket statements. | | |
| ▲ | ivell 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not only respectful. Also it ensures that all different aspects of a decision is considered before making the decision. If not aligned with all parties, we would miss important flaws in the plan. It is just a sensible thing to do. | | |
| ▲ | rtpg an hour ago | parent [-] | | > If not aligned with all parties, we would miss important flaws in the plan. I think the difficult cases come when people's interests aren't aligned. If you're coordinating with a vendor to basically detangle yourself from their vendor-specific tooling to be able to move away from them, at some level it doesn't really make sense to read them in on that. There are degrees to this, and I think you can argue both sides here (so ultimately it's a question of what you want to do), but parties are rarely neutral. So the tough discussions come from ones where one party is going to be losing out on something. |
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| ▲ | palmotea 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > long and slow consensus building that weighs existing stakeholder's opinions heavily vs doing "the right thing" from the outset. How do you know what "the right thing" is at the outset without talking to the stakeholders? I'm dealing with someone's "the right thing" that is actually wrong and dumb. They didn't ask us before rolling out the new "standard." | | |
| ▲ | rtpg an hour ago | parent [-] | | Some people are very confident in their understanding of a problem! Others will discount the validity of the stakeholders involved having good judgement. I think most people have at least one issue where they discount one of the stakeholder's judgement, it's all fairly contextual. But hey, if you're the CEO of some company you have the ability to act on that discounting. |
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| ▲ | jack1243star 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not OP but the phrase in Japanese also carries a negative connotation, that important issues are decided by a shadow process hidden below the surface, beforehand by those in the loop. Meetings are just for show. |
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| ▲ | ezoe 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Exactly, this is just a 面子(face) problem. Also, his demanding of not using his work for AI training is nonsense. Because entire articles, this one included is published under a Creative Commons license. Didn't he agree on that? Mozilla must reject his further contribution because he stated he don't understand the term of Creative Commons license. His wish granted I guess. |