It is an unfortunate fact about our industry that all build tools suck. Tell me what your favorite build tool is and I can point at hundreds of HN threads ripping it to shreds. Maybe it's NPM? Cue the screams...

I agree though, "XML is not a programming language" and attempts to use it that way have produced poor results. You should have seen the `ant` era! But this is broader than XML - look at pretty much every popular CI system for "YAML is not a programming language".

That doesn't mean that XML isn't useful. Just not as a programming language.

▲

dfabulich 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But, that's what XSL is! XSL is a Turing-complete programming language in XML for processing XML documents. Being in XML is a big part of what makes XSL so awful to write.

▲

stickfigure 18 hours ago | parent [-]

XSL may be Turing-complete but it's not a programming language and wasn't intended to be one. It's a declarative way to transform XML. When used as such I never found it awful to write... it's certainly much easier than doing the equivalent in general purpose programming languages.

Maybe by analogy: There are type systems that are Turing complete. People sometimes abuse them to humorous effect to write whole programs (famously, C++ templates). That doesn't mean that type systems are bad.

	▲	dfabulich 12 hours ago \| parent [-]
		XSL is a functional programming language, not a declarative language. When you xsl:apply-template, you're calling a function. Functional programming languages can often feel declarative. When XSL is doing trivial, functional transformations, when you keep your hands off of xsl:for-each, XSL feels declarative, and doesn't feel that bad. The problem is: no clean API is perfectly shaped for UI, so you always wind up having to do arbitrary, non-trivial transformations with tricky uses of for-each to make the output HTML satisfy user requirements. XSL's "escape hatch" is to allow arbitrary Turing-complete transformations. This was always intended to exist, to make easy transformations easy and hard transformations possible. You basically never need to write Turing-complete code in a type system, but in any meaningful XSL project you will absolutely need to write Turing-complete XSL. XSL's escape hatch is always needed, but it's absolutely terrible, especially compared to JS, especially compared to modern frameworks. This is why JS remained popular, but XSL dwindled.

▲

DonHopkins 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Java is a big DSL to transform XML into stacktraces"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26663191

XSLT (or ANT) may be Turing complete, but it's firmly embedded in the Turing Tarpit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit

>"54. Beware of the Turing tar-pit in which everything is possible but nothing of interest is easy." -Alan Perlis

▲

mschuster91 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It is an unfortunate fact about our industry that all build tools suck. Tell me what your favorite build tool is and I can point at hundreds of HN threads ripping it to shreds. Maybe it's NPM? Cue the screams...

npm isn't even a build tool, it's a package manager and at that it's actually gotten quite decent - the fact that the JS ecosystem at large doesn't give a fuck about respecting semantic versioning or keeps reinventing the wheel or that NodeJS / JavaScript itself lacks a decent standard library aren't faults of npm ;)

Maven and Gradle in contrast are one-stop-shops, both build orchestrators and dependency managers. As for ant, oh hell yes I'm aware of that. The most horrid build system I encountered in my decade worth of tenure as "the guy who can figure out pretty much any nuclear submarine project (aka, only surfaces every few years after everyone working on it departed)" involved Gradle, which then orchestrated Maven and Ant, oh and the project was built on a Jenkins that was half DSL, half clicked together in the web UI, and the runner that executed the builds was a manually set up, "organically grown" server. That one was a holy damn mess to understand, unwind, clean up and migrate to Gitlab.

> look at pretty much every popular CI system for "YAML is not a programming language".

Oh yes... I only had the misfortune of having to code for Github Actions once in my life time, it's utter fucking madness compared to GitLab.