Remix.run Logo
throw23748923 a day ago

What's the chance this event happened as recorded in popular memory? The inscription dates to 1284, but the earliest mention according to the article is 1384, 100 years later. On a symbolic day no less. The plaque, where 1284 is inscribed, is on a house dating to the 1500s.

It seems much more plausible that e.g. children emigrated as adults to another region (as mentioned in the article) and the old-timers who stayed behind lamented the 'loss of their children' so to speak; when the history was recorded in town records, it's unlikely that any of these old-timers or children were around. Hundreds of years of historical layering, where the most interesting version of the story is the one that is reinforced likely explains the mythological nature of the tale.

But what do I know? I suppose it is curious.

jvanderbot a day ago | parent | next [-]

Combining all the elements, a foreigner-led emigration of adult / young adults en masse because of a rat/disease/sanitation problem seems just fine as an explanation.

evolve2k 15 hours ago | parent [-]

While the mystery of the story has always been attractive the maybe more obvious moral truth within the tale is part of its enduring nature.

In short the town screws the piper for his work with the rats, in what looks to be an act of greed and arrogance by the town leaders, likley even having done this before (tales of exploited contractors are easy to find even to this day).

But the moral was in the way the piper responded, shockingly and surprisingly taking off with (per the plaque) some 130 children at midsommer no less.

It’s a little abstracted here as the article doesn’t start with the legend (of course cause it’s so famous); but I think the historical reframe to draw from this is that after not being paid for his work removing rats he “takes payment” by recruiting 130 children and taking them to settle new lands (being paid then for the provision of the children to the settlors).

I think for those interested in the histories, it somewhat solves the mystery and clarifies how the piper was paid in the end. The beauty of the narrative and the core moral of the story remain. And likely this story is still relevant for us today.

Make good on your promises especially around payment lest the other party takes payment in other ways, with possible costs that you never first considered.

zeristor 12 hours ago | parent [-]

One key point, could one lure rats away by playing on a flute?

I mean if you could it would be handy to automate it in large cities even today, no toxic poisons.

I’m not sure what evidence there is for that part of the story. It could be a tale as others have posted as to why the town lost so many children.

chasil 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As the involvement of a magic flute is unlikely in the extreme, this devolves to kidnapping.

As to why, the article asserts the scenarios of forced migration for settling new areas, or perhaps a "childrens' crusade" to the war in the Middle East.

harimau777 11 hours ago | parent [-]

FWIW, my reading of the article wasn't that the migration was necessarily forced. It could just be the youth leaving for better opportunities. Even today you have elderly people complaining about the kids moving to the city.

IAmBroom 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> On a symbolic day no less.

Meh, the feast day of two saints. Pretty much any day of the year. Today is the feast day for Saints Bertille, Zechariah, and Elizabeth.

thinkingemote 16 hours ago | parent [-]

People in medieval times had more time off not working than today. Feast days were actual feast days, they often didn't work during them. Feast days were not something written on a calendar that only a few people could consult and say "hmm, oh look today is the feast day of such and such... meh, what's for supper?" :-)

They had to a greater or lesser extent, fairs, games, dances - they were literally festivals. People looked forward to and prepared in advance for feast days. There are at least 2 things that I think are relevant: firstly feast days punctuated and delimited the calendar and people's lives and secondly feast days were very memorable shared whole-community events.

This doesn't necessarily make the story more believable but it can make it more memorable. Think of a story where it says "it happened at Halloween and again at Christmas" and it could just help fix that story in a specific time making it more memorable in our brains.

BobaFloutist 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Sorry, you think early-modern indentured sharecropping subsidence farmers without dishwashers, laundry machines, sewing machines, or industrialized clothing production worked less than 2080 hours a year?

Subsidence farming is a brutally demanding, painful way to scrape a living. Even with modern technology, it can't be overstated the sheer amount of labor it takes to grow enough food just to feed yourself, and that's without owing an obscene portion of your product to your "landlord" (who's also your employer and your local government, and can forbid you freedom of movement and dictate your personal life).

Laundry was an immense amount of labor. Keeping the home intact took labor. Maintaining your clothes took labor.

Look up the the BBC historic farm series if you want an idea of the amount of work it takes to actually run a farm, without any of the extra problems actually living in that period would bring, such as not understanding germ theory and sanitation, unreliable access to clean water, no real medical care, no real birth control, and no defense against a bad season just breaking your back.

cwillu 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://acoup.blog/2025/07/11/collections-life-work-death-an... has a ten part series on the topic.

cindyllm 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

cubefox 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

100 years isn't that long though. Enough to transmit an exact date to multiple people. Also, the oldest surviving record isn't necessarily the earliest record there ever was.

cogman10 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah it is. It's a full generation.

The Spanish flu is a great example of that phenomena. It's hardly mentioned in history books yet we had a flu season where people were dying in the streets. Very shortly after it happened, people stopped talking about it or mentioning it.

COVID is looking like it will very much turn into the same thing.

These are massive global events that may only get small blubs 100 years later. Now imagine an event that happens in a localized area. How much of that event will get carried on or reported?

You also have to remember that in the 1200s, things like paper and ink were a lot more expensive than modern paper. That's part of the reason literacy rates were a lot lower.

lproven 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> It's a full generation.

This is wrong. It is 4 generations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation

« the average period, generally considered to be about 20–30 years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children. »

> a great example of that phenomena

This is wrong. "Phenomena" is plural. The singular is "phenomenon."

> It's hardly mentioned in history books

Because it is living memory for a small number of people.

"Spanish flu" is widely remembered, and just 4-5 years ago thousands of articles were published comparing the measures taken a century before against a pandemic.

> small blubs

I think you meant "blurbs", as in "short informal pieces of writing", and it's a poor choice of words anyway. "To blub" means to cry.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blub

These repeated errors strongly weaken your argument, and suggest that despite your confident tone you don't know as much as you think.

jvanderbot 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your off-topic ad hominems or pedantic takedowns weaken any point you might have had, if you'd had one. This is not high school debate or reddit. We can do better here. It's best to take the most generous view of a post and address the core thesis.

lproven 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the core argument was wrong and it was surrounded by a whole list of other errors which demonstrate flawed thinking and lack of knowledge and understanding.

I further think that pointing out errors is absolutely vital and core to intelligent discourse and discussion. It is a terrible weakness of 202x attitudes that saying "you are wrong, your reasoning is wrong, and here I will spell out how and why" is perceived as rude.

This attitude is what led to Trump, notably the 2nd term, it led to Brexit, it led to the Ukraine war, and it led to international attitudes on Israel v Palestine.

Calling out mistakes and outright lies is crucially important. It is not rude or discourteous. It is necessary.

If people don't like it... well, tough.

hluska 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

thinkingtoilet 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Go play a game of telephone with 20 people and see how well information travels. Now multiply that by 100 years.

IAmBroom 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If that game of telephone includes the sentence "I'm going to kidnap your child", I'll bet it travels faster and more accurately than you think it will.

advisedwang 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

100 years doesn't require a game of telephone with 20 people. It requires maybe 2 or 3. And for a event known to a whole town, you have multiple independent narrators which can help stabilize information.

My family has far more trivial information passed down orally that is way older than 100 years.

cogman10 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Mine doesn't. I know just a handful of things about my great grandparents. Things I do know about my family history didn't come from oral traditions but rather records placing my ancestors in places.

Even from what I know of my parents, I'm sure I've forgotten or misremembered a bunch of stories that they've told me about their lives. I couldn't reliably retell more than a handful of stories.

cubefox 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That calculation doesn't make sense.

soperj 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Except oral histories seemed to have been very important to people and passing them down accurately has been noted throughout history

bbarnett 16 hours ago | parent [-]

No TV, no books. Lightly populated rural communities, without a lot of visitors.

People loved stories because they were bored.

AlotOfReading 16 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not boredom. Humans have always told stories and we still tell them today. How often does the 500 mile email come up on HN, or The Story of Mel? What about the SR-71 speed check? It's an innate human characteristic to love stories and most social media is lightly disguised storytelling.

bbarnett 14 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not boredom.

Says someone who didn't listen to an old timers 70th rendition of the same old story.

There are stories, and then there are stories. I grew up pre-Internet with limited books, no way to get more, 3 fuzzy TV channels on a good day, and nothing else.

People today don't even know what boredom is. You don't know what boredom is, until you've watched the same episode of The Andy Griffith Show 15 times, and still think it is entertaining.

Now go to pre-literate times. No TV. Yes, stories are fun.

But hearing the same story over and over 1000 times is only fun if you're so bored, any external stimulus is a blessing.

AlotOfReading 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Let's not assume things about age. I'm old enough to remember holding the stupid rabbit ears. Never liked the Andy Griffith show though. I've also spent plenty of nights sitting a fire with a bunch of nomads in the middle of nowhere.

It's not fundamentally different from media today. Audiobooks, Twilight Zone, Black Mirror, Disney movies, true crime media, etc. People don't choose these for lack of alternatives. They're activities people like (excepting the parents forced to watch Frozen for the thousandth time).

Strong oral storytelling cultures also have many, many stories available to them. It's not as tedious as syndicated TV was. Two examples of collections that survive to the modern day are the Jewish bible (old testament) and the Christian New Testament, each of which has dozens of stories you're likely familiar with no matter your religious background. They're not communicated solely through everyone sitting down around a campfire, and not every recitation is in the formal verbiage of the source material. Often recitation is associated with a calendar (e.g. the sermon schedules ministers follow in modern churches, or performed only at particular seasonal festivals). Different recitations are often performed in new ways to adjust things to the audience (e.g. referencing recent events) or with slight changes to keep things fresh. So on and so forth. It's a much richer world than you may be aware of.

Jtsummers 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The telephone game lacks features in the telling that are common in oral storytelling that help reinforce the content and reduces the number of errors. Repeated telling, repetition in the structure, rhyming and alliteration (which is used, or even if they're used, depends on the language), being made into a song (seems to stick better than just straight speaking), etc. If you played the telephone game with a deliberately constructed story using those elements and taught that story to the next "generation" by repetition over a period of time before they, in turn, repeated it to the next generation it would be much more reliable. It also wouldn't be the telephone game.

WalterBright 17 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm convinced that poems are an effective error-correcting code for remembering things.

giraffe_lady 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean looking at the attested record, interpreting it, weighing evidence and motive and audience in this way, that's what historians do that is the practice of the discipline of history.

100 years later is actually pretty damn close all things considered! For comparison we have contemporaneous inscriptions and epigraphs attesting the existence of alexander the great but the earliest surviving accounts of his actions are from 200-300 years later. It can be the dedicated work of a scholar's lifetime to pry a handful of verifiable facts from these second- and third-hand, biased, incomplete accounts. But the lifetimes stack up and the guesses come into focus as knowledge.

empath75 21 hours ago | parent [-]

> For comparison we have contemporaneous inscriptions and epigraphs attesting the existence of alexander the great but the earliest surviving accounts of his actions are from 200-300 years later.

This is true, but those surviving accounts quote or paraphrase contemporaneous accounts from his generals like Ptolemy and others that have since been lost.

giraffe_lady 20 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure but now we're doing history in the comment section where I only intended to point out that this is exactly how history is done.