| ▲ | AnotherGoodName a day ago |
| Meanwhile in pretty much all other nations you go online to the free website, see your employer contributions already filled in and acknowledge they are correct for the year, add any extra income, check boxes for relevant deductions and you’re done. |
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| ▲ | hliyan a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| This is true even of some third world countries like Sri Lanka (where I live). There is a web-based system called RAMIS (Revenue Administration Management Information System). Any taxpayer can log in using their tax identification number and file their taxes. |
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| ▲ | cyanydeez 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Hating taxes is an intentional regressive system to ensure its complex and is politically expedient to "cut". |
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| ▲ | terminalshort a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Which is basically how it works here too. If you just have W-2 income from an employer it takes less than 10 minutes to fill out the form. Sure, the system you mention is more convenient, but the difference is minimal. |
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| ▲ | wildzzz a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The IRS already has most of my tax information and knows the tax code. Why must I deal with a third party (and potentially have to pay them) to electronically file my own taxes? | | |
| ▲ | testing22321 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The same reason you pay exorbitant sums for healthcare, education, transport and much more. The US is not a county optimized to provide quality services inexpensively. It is a business optimized to maximize profits. | |
| ▲ | ghoul2 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When I lived in the US(5 yrs), early 2000s, from my second year onwards, I used to receive a pre-filled 1040NR-EZ with my W2 info already printed/filled-in on it. Typically, I would just add a deduction, and mailed it back. Does that program not exist? Or was it only for NR? | |
| ▲ | terminalshort a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don't have to do that. There is no such requirement. You can fill out the forms for free. | | |
| ▲ | nielsbot 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | But that's a bad solution. (Otherwise why do TurboTax et al even exist in the first place?) IRS should just have a public free filing solution for everyone. If you have complicated taxes or want to do your own filing, you can still do that. | | |
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| ▲ | Amezarak a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You don't have to pay. https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/free-file-fillable-form... As for "having most of your tax information", they don't. They know your reported income. You see that on your W2s/1099s/etc. What they don't know is whether or not you had a kid this year, or whether you lost a kid this year, whether you got married or divorced, if your spouse is claiming the kids this year or not, the number or amount of your charitable contributions, whether you have deductible mileage expenses, or a million other things. | | |
| ▲ | klausa a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This argument could be put in a museum as a perfect illustration of the "Perfect is the enemy of good" maxim. Would just relying on the information from your employers cover all possible edge-cases? No. Would it dramatically simplify the process for (tens?) millions of people? Absolutely. | | |
| ▲ | terminalshort a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The info that the IRS has from your employer is maybe 5 boxes on your return. Literally takes a few minutes to take the info from your w-2 and put it on a 1040. | |
| ▲ | Amezarak a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The number and type of people living in your household is not an edge case. It applies to almost everyone, has huge tax impacts, and the IRS doesn’t know. | | |
| ▲ | array_key_first 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | The argument is that you don't need a third party like Intuit to get this information. The IRS could get it themselves - they choose not to. | | |
| ▲ | ffffgov 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | They can’t. Because IRS IT has been starved, beaten and abused for 20 years. If they had the resources and leadership, all of this could be possible via MOUs and better data access/normalization from the mainframes. |
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| ▲ | BrandoElFollito 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In France the web site asks you if your household details changed. No? 2 more clicks and you are done. Yes? 2 + nr of changes clicks and you are done. Took me an extra 5 seconds when my son left. You can make your taxes as complcated as you want but for 95% of the population foling taxes takes a few minutes. | | |
| ▲ | Amezarak 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Filing a 1040 in the US is also very easy and takes a few minutes and can be done for free. Another factor most people are ignoring is that state taxes are filed at the same time and each state has its own separate system. These third parties let you fill in and file both at the same time. It would be nice if the US gov did this too but it requires a total restructuring of the American system, and Intuit’s lobbying has nothing to do with why it hasn’t happened or for that matter why the tax codes looks like it does. | | |
| ▲ | dpark 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Filing a 1040 in the US is also very easy Not for most people. It’s a giant pain in the ass if you have bank accounts and want to file correctly. If all you do is plug in your w-2 and pretend that’s your whole tax return and you don’t care about anything except the standard deduction, sure. That’s not correct for most people. > state taxes are filed at the same time and each state has its own separate system Can we stop pretending like this is a problem insurmountable for the federal government? This idea that TurboTax can make this work but the government can’t is absurd. |
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| ▲ | beej71 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I use free fillable forms. There are zero people on the planet who insist they are remotely as easy as Direct File. | |
| ▲ | isleyaardvark 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do these other countries described above know whether you had a kid or got divorced? | | |
| ▲ | deanmen 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, in many European countries dependents and marital status changes are registered in a national civil registry, which the tax authority can query directly. Countries like the U.S., Canada, the U.K. cannot easily do that without huge data-sharing reforms. | |
| ▲ | fragmede 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Even the US knows that you've had a qualifying event, they're just being stubborn. |
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| ▲ | rcbdev a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The system he mentioned is usually equally simple for self-employed. | | |
| ▲ | terminalshort a day ago | parent [-] | | When I have had 1099s from consulting work it has also been very easy to file. Not quite as easy as Direct File could make it, but pretty damn easy. |
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| ▲ | insane_dreamer 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In theory, yes. In practice, no. Also, Americans have to file both fed and state taxes (with different rules) | |
| ▲ | chneu a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Lol not really in practice. |
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| ▲ | foxglacier a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Doesn't America have uniquely complicated tax that requires you to keep all your receipts to claim all sorts of confusing deductions? How can the IRS know what you spent your income on if you don't tell them? I've had the misfortune of having to fill in a W8-BEN-E form [1] and the first time, I just gave up and refused to work with the client because it was too complicated. The 2nd time, I got an LLM to tell me how to fill it in. Just look at the dense jargon - nonparticipating FFI, deemed-compliant FFI, Restricted distributor, International organiztion (hint, that's the wrong answer), Excepted territory NFFE, Passive NFFE, Direct reporting NFFE. There are 32 of them! What the hell is all that? Well 99% of cases are just one of those buried among the rest but you wouldn't know which without some advice. [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8bene.pdf |
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| ▲ | thayne a day ago | parent | next [-] | | For most people, those deductions are less than the "standard" deduction you can take instead. For most of the people who do itemized deductions, it's mostly just your mortgage payment and state taxes, which the IRS already knows about, and maybe charitable donations. And even if you do have a lot of things to report, why not just report those things directly and let the IRS calculate your taxes, rather than you having to do it, fill out a complicated form, then the IRS does the calculation anyways to make sure you did it right? | |
| ▲ | ptmcc a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The majority of Americans are W2 wage earners that take the standard deduction. | |
| ▲ | tietjens a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For a truly uniquely complicated tax system please move to Germany. | | |
| ▲ | thesumofall a day ago | parent | next [-] | | While I fully agree that there are a lot of complicated rules for edge cases, for simple (non self employed) cases it is very straightforward. In fact, you don’t have to do anything at all in many cases and still won’t be screwed over as the German IRS will assume typical deductions. There is an official free filing software and if you spend 20-30 USD a year you’ll get access to super easy to use professional filing software. My situation is more complicated than most and I spend 2hrs a year for my entire family | |
| ▲ | fragmede 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why stop there? If you reside in multiple countries, then it really gets fun. |
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| ▲ | realusername a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I highly doubt that it's more complicated than the French or German tax system. | | |
| ▲ | nsteel a day ago | parent | next [-] | | They make even the simple case more complicated than it needs to be. In these other countries, most people don't need to file anything, it just works with what the state already knows. You don't have to provide a load of supplementary info to get the correct outcome. I can only guess you think this way because you've not done taxes in another country. | |
| ▲ | sofixa a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Based on what? The French tax system is pretty simple. Taxes are high, but simple. The website you use to file your taxes is also pretty simple, and every single field has a button that explains what it is about and in which cases you should write stuff inside. The only annoying parts are if you have accounts outside of France, you have to declare them. And if you get dividends/capital gains in foreign currencies outside of the EU, you have to calculate yourself how much tax you owe using a bunch of tables per country and currency. | | |
| ▲ | realusername a day ago | parent [-] | | For basic taxes yes but you have annex forms which are 20 pages long in the french system. | | |
| ▲ | Thorrez a day ago | parent | next [-] | | 20 pages? My 2024 full pdf from turbotax was 644 pages. | |
| ▲ | sofixa a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, and? Nobody would fill all annexes. They are annexes because they're not part of the common path, and are only needed in specific scenarios. Their length is kind of irrelevant. | | |
| ▲ | terminalshort a day ago | parent [-] | | This is exactly the way it works in the US. All the really complex parts are never even used by 99% of people. |
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| ▲ | simoncion a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Just look at the dense jargon ... There are 32 of them! What the hell is all that? For every form I've ever had to file with the IRS, there's a corresponding set of instructions. Those instructions inevitably have a definitions section and/or define the terms in-line. The instructions for form W8-BEN-E are at [0]. The definitions section starts at printed page 4 and continues through to printed page 7. Some terms you mentioned (like "Excepted territory NFFE") are not in the definitions section, but are described in their own sections. I'm definitely not going to claim that it's foolish to consult with a tax lawyer (or similar such thing) when one is significantly uncertain about one's taxes. I'm definitely going to object to your implied claim that the IRS dumps a bunch of jargon on you and leaves you to rely on general-purpose search engines to figure out what the fuck they're talking about. [0] <https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8bene.pdf> | | |
| ▲ | cactacea 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just follow the instructions? From your linked PDF: > The time needed to complete and file this form will vary depending on individual circumstances. The estimated average time is: Recordkeeping, 12 hr., 40 min.; Learning about the law or the form, 4 hr., 17 min.; Preparing and sending the form, 8 hr., 16 min. | | |
| ▲ | simoncion 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Just follow the instructions? I spoke in objection to one very specific claim: > [The] implied claim that the IRS dumps a bunch of jargon on you and leaves you to rely on general-purpose search engines to figure out what the fuck they're talking about. Feel free to imagine that I was addressing something else. It's a free country and all. You also might want to look at the estimated average time for a non-business taxpayer to complete a 1040. If the 1040 estimate methodology is typical, then those estimates are pretty pessimistic. |
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| ▲ | 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | ainiriand a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | When you say America you certainly mean USA? Or is America a country now? | | |
| ▲ | bluebarbet 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Technically, America is neither a country nor a continent. But the USA is the only country on either of the continents of the Americas to have the word "America" in its official name. Give the Americans a break. | |
| ▲ | drysine 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's the only country in Americas that US citizens think is important. | | |
| ▲ | array_key_first 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | America is colloquially the USA. The Americas is something else. South America is something else. North America is something else. | | |
| ▲ | drysine 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | That time has passed. | | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Now you have me really curious. When did "that time" start, and when did it end? | | |
| ▲ | 1718627440 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Maybe it started, when the USA became the global power in the half of the 20th century and it stopped when they lost being the free and aspiring country others countries think they should model after, which might be in 2001, or when they openly started extorting their (former) allies, which is under Trump. |
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| ▲ | jandrewrogers a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Remember, Americans have to file taxes separately to the State and Federal government. The Federal government has little authority to dictate State taxes. The paperwork is in part a coordination problem between the State and Federal governments. Basic taxes are trivial in the US if you just work to live, it is essentially one page. However, there is an extremely long and fat tail where the government has no way of knowing the correct details to compute your taxes. There are myriad subsidies and offsets that have to be accounted for, many of which depend on what State you live in. If you earn a lot of money, like the tech people that frequent this website, you are much more likely to find yourself in that fat tail. It can become esoteric quite quickly. The Federal tax code has to accommodate the completely independent tax codes of all 50 States in a reasonable way. |
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| ▲ | Jolter a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Even so, Direct File was possible. Until it wasn’t. | |
| ▲ | RajT88 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is not that complex. RSU's or options are pretty straightforward. Deductions can get esoteric if you sold a bunch of stock. Even then, not that bad. | | |
| ▲ | jandrewrogers a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Congratulations on having simple taxes. It can definitely get more complex. There is a reason Americans spend staggering amounts of time and money on tax preparation. It is simple until it isn’t. | | | |
| ▲ | Thorrez a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | RSUs are not straightforward: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43676698 And options are worse. | | |
| ▲ | RajT88 a day ago | parent [-] | | All right, I guess I see your point. If you company doesn't handle the complexity, it can be a nightmare. Where I've worked, they withhold the necessary number of shares from RSU's and it just gets taxed as W-2 income. Then, it shows up with the taxed cost basis in Fidelity so you don't get double taxed when selling shares. It doesn't appear like they have to factor in travel into that equation - that's only for your salary. As far as options, it was similar where I was receiving them. The only issue I ever had exercising options was when the company whose stock I was trading changed names, and then the IRS suddenly believed all those options were 0 cost basis and wanted a bunch of money. That took two rounds of letters and a call to HR to get sorted out. Granted - laws have changed since then - that fiasco was 18 years ago. | | |
| ▲ | Thorrez 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | >Where I've worked, they withhold the necessary number of shares from RSU's and it just gets taxed as W-2 income. Then, it shows up with the taxed cost basis in Fidelity so you don't get double taxed when selling shares. The same as where I work (Schwab though for me, not Fidelity). However, they don't track wash sales for me. Do they track wash sales for you? From what I understand, federal law tells brokers to track wash sales for regular stock purchases and sales, but not for stock from vested RSUs, but still requires the stock holder to track wash sales for stock from vested RSUs. >It doesn't appear like they have to factor in travel into that equation - that's only for your salary. My employer also doesn't generally track travel for the purposes of taxes. But the state laws say I need to do it and file taxes based on my tracking. | |
| ▲ | fragmede 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | AMT |
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| ▲ | pjc50 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | If they genuinely can't work out what you owe, why bother paying it at all? Shouldn't there be a massive tax evasion problem? | | |
| ▲ | sgerenser a day ago | parent [-] | | There is actually a pretty massive tax evasion problem. Or at least the IRS is pretty sure there is, but they don’t have the resources to go after even a small fraction of them. The only thing that keeps people honest is the worry that if they lie, the IRS might already know (based on e.g. 1099 reports that go to the IRS), or they’ll get audited (which actually happens very infrequently). |
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