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axblount a day ago

What's the advantage of standardizing through ISO/IEC? Better adoption in industry?

Seems like this would take away a lot of power from RISC-V International. But I don't know much about this process.

ryukoposting a day ago | parent | next [-]

Government agencies like to take standards off the shelf whenever they can. Citing something overseen by an apolitical, non-profit organization avoids conflicts of interest (relative to the alternatives).

Random example I found at a glance: NIST recommending use of a specific ISO standard in domains not formally covered by a regulatory body: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.S...

o11c a day ago | parent | next [-]

It's impossible to take ISO seriously after the .docx fiasco.

noir_lord a day ago | parent | next [-]

That’s the definition of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Is ISO as an organisation imperfect sometimes (as in the docs case) sure?, it’s composed of humans who are generally flawed creatures, is it generally a good solution despite that?, also sure.

They’ve published tens of thousands off standards over 70 plus years that are deeply important to multiple industries so disregarding them because Microsoft co-opted them once 20 odd years ago seems unreasonable to me.

hofrogs a day ago | parent | prev [-]

What .docx fiasco?

lifthrasiir a day ago | parent [-]

Office Open XML, the standard behind .docx and other zipped XML formats, was fast-tracked into the international standard without many rounds of reviews (by the same JTC 1!).

marcosdumay 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Citing something overseen by an apolitical, non-profit organization avoids conflicts of interest (relative to the alternatives).

Of course this is a lie. But yes, governments like to claim that.

jcelerier a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As the article says:

> “International standards have a special status,” says Phil Wennblom, Chair of ISO/IEC JTC 1. “Even though RISC-V is already globally recognized, once something becomes an ISO/IEC standard, it’s even more widely accepted. Countries around the world place strong emphasis on international standards as the basis for their national standards. It’s a significant tailwind when it comes to market access.”

veltas a day ago | parent | next [-]

Says that, but I don't agree with that. If anything it would have been less successful being picked up in discount markets if the specs weren't free for download, and I don't know what fringes they're trying to break into but probably none of them care whether the spec is ISO.

rjsw a day ago | parent | next [-]

That can depend on how the spec gets made into an ISO standard. There is a process called "harvesting" that can allow the original author to continue to distribute an existing specification independently of ISO.

jcelerier 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Says that, but I don't agree with that

I guess you just never had to fill in a grant application where you have to justify that you are using official standards so that you can get money

veltas 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm guessing in those kinds of situations it doesn't matter about the arch given x86 and ARM also aren't ISO standards. The manufacturers however should comply with relevant quality standards.

lifthrasiir a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Usual lies. There are a plethora of largely ignored international standards. Making it an international standard is just one of many ways to achieve the wide worldwide acception and still has a high failure rate.

6SixTy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My take is that it could help tie up fragmentation. RISC-V has different profiles defining what instructions come with for different use cases like a general purpose OS, and enshrining them as an ISO standard would give the entire industry a rallying point.

Without these profiles, we are stuck with memorizing a word soup of RV64GCBV_Zicntr_Zihpm_etc all means

justahuman74 a day ago | parent | next [-]

riscv was already gaining a profile mechanism outside of ISO, for example 'RVA23' is a known set of extensions

pjmlp a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hardly, see programming languages standards and compiler specific extensions.

aDyslecticCrow a day ago | parent [-]

languages are more fluid than processor architectures. I don't think they can be compared.

pjmlp a day ago | parent [-]

One would think, yet welcome to enterprise consulting, especially customers whose main business is not selling software.

You will find fossilized languages all over the place.

aDyslecticCrow a day ago | parent [-]

fossilised is often desirable or requested in some industries. Developing for the embedded market myself, we often have to stick to C99 to ensure compatibility with whatever ancient compiler a costumer or even chipset vendor may still be running.

snvzz a day ago | parent | prev [-]

RISC-V never had a fragmentation problem, thanks to the profiles.

IshKebab a day ago | parent [-]

I wouldn't say it never had a problem, but the profiles are definitely a reasonable solution.

However even with profiles there are optional extensions and a lot of undefined behaviour (sometimes deliberately, sometimes because the spec is just not especially well written).

snvzz a day ago | parent [-]

The FUD keeps being brought up, but the solution here was in place before the potential issue could manifest.

It started with G, later retroactively named RVA20 (with a minor extra extension that nobody ever skipped implementing), then RVA22 and now RVA23. All application processor implementations out there conform to a profile, and so do the relevant Linux distributions.

Of course, in embedded systems where the vendor controls the full stack, the freedom of micromanaging which extensions to implement as well as the freedom to add custom extensions is actual value.

The original architects of the ISA knew what they were doing.

boredatoms a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe it helps get government contracts

“We’re standards compliant”

userbinator a day ago | parent [-]

It's not like ARM and x86 are standardised by ISO either.

miki123211 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Governments seem to care about "self-sufficiency" a lot more these days, especially after what's happening in both China and the US right now.

If the choice is between an architecture owned, patented and managed by a single company domiciled in a foreign country, versus one which is an international standard and has multiple competing vendors, the latter suddenly seems a lot more attractive.

Price and performance don't matter that much. Governments are a lot less price-sensitive than consumers (and even businesses), they're willing to spend money to achieve their goals.

lambdaone a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is exactly what makes this such an interesting development. Standardization is part of the process of the CPU industry becoming a mature industry not dependent on the whims of individual companies. Boring, yes, but also stable.

aDyslecticCrow a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, and they're both massively debated and criticised, to the point that the industry developed Risk-V in the firstplace. Not to mention the rugpull licensing ARM pulled a few years back.

eru a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, but if 30 years ago ARM had an ISO standard they could point to, that would have probably helped with government adoption?

(It's still a trade-off, because standards also cost community time and effort.)

userbinator a day ago | parent [-]

Relatedly, 30 years ago someone attempted to turn the Windows 3.1 API into an ISO standard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_Programming_Interf...

It didn't become one, but it did become standardised as ECMA-234:

https://ecma-international.org/publications-and-standards/st...

eru a day ago | parent [-]

Well, Wine shows that Win32 is the only stable ABI, even on Linux.

GoblinSlayer a day ago | parent [-]

>On May 5, 1993, Sun Microsystems announced Windows Application Binary Interface (WABI), a product to run Windows software on Unix, and the Public Windows Interface (PWI) initiative, an effort to standardize a subset of the popular 16-bit Windows APIs.

>In February 1994, the PWI Specification Committee sent a draft specification to X/Open—who rejected it in March, after being threatened by Microsoft's assertion of intellectual property rights (IPR) over the Windows APIs

Looks like that's what it was.

signa11 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

they are de-facto…

kouteiheika a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It ticks a checkbox. That's it. Some organizations and/or governments might have rules that emphasize using international standards, and this might help with it.

I just hope it's going to be a "throw it over the fence and standardize" type of a deal, where the actual standardization process will still be outside of ISO (the ISO process is not very good - not my words, just ask the members of the C++ committee) and the text of the standard will be freely licensed and available to everyone (ISO paywalls its standards).

kmeisthax a day ago | parent [-]

> the ISO process is not very good - not my words, just ask the members of the C++ committee

Casual reminder that they ousted one of the founders of MPEG for daring to question the patent mess around H.265 (paraphrasing, a lot, of course)

thebeardisred a day ago | parent | prev [-]

This allows RISC-V international to propose their standards as ISO/IEC standards.