| ▲ | suprjami a day ago |
| Thanks for the summary. American dishwashers don't have their own heater? All dishwashers I've seen in Australia only have cold water supply. |
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| ▲ | mrandish a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Some US washers don't but many do. However, US washers tend to not heat water as quickly or to as high of a temp. The video cites two reasons: 1. US power being 110V vs 220v. 2. US dishwasher heating elements being limited to 800 or 1000 watts because many are designed to potentially share one 20A residential circuit with an oven and/or fridge due to possibly being retrofitted into a kitchen built before built-in dishwashers were standard and manufacturers not wanting to create different models for retrofit vs new installs. |
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| ▲ | masklinn 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > share one 20A residential circuit 15, dishwasher manufacturers can't assume the dishwasher is on a 20. | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | This plus the comment about sharing a circuit with an oven. If the oven is electric, even in the US it is 220v. If it is gas only, then it could be 120v as it only needs to run the igniter and other circuitry without running any heating elements. | | |
| ▲ | bcoates 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think he said sharing a circuit with a fridge, which are generally 110 in the US -- i think this is how my apartment is wired (2-phase 30A to oven dedicated, one 20A for the whole rest of kitchen) Trying to run a resistive heater on the same circuit as a fridge compressor without tripping leans towards very conservative wattage | | |
| ▲ | Scoundreller 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's funny. Code in Ontario Canada is that the fridge needs to be on its own circuit. It's funny because we have an extra-big-ass inverter drive fridge that never draws more than an amp or two, even at startup because it's inherently soft-start. Just a waste of copper and a beaker really. | | |
| ▲ | Johnny555 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >Just a waste of copper and a beaker really. But also helps avoid the case where your coffee maker trips the breaker shared with your refrigerator and you don't notice until the food in the refrigerator is warm. (which was a risk in my previous apartment - the counter circuits were shared with the refrigerator). I think it makes sense to have it as a separate circuit. | | |
| ▲ | brewdad 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Good point. I haven’t tripped a GFCI in a long while but I don’t actually know if my fridge will lose power when I do trip the GFCI. My guess is that it will since it does have a water line and ice dispenser so probably requires being wired into the same circuit. |
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| ▲ | inferiorhuman an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Electric ovens in the US have required dedicated 40 or 50 amp circuits for decades per the NEC. Dishwashers, as well, have required dedicated circuits for a while but the 20 amp requirement is a more recent development (although it's probably been at least a couple decades). Kitchens in general have required 20 amp general purpose circuits since at least the early 80s. However the NEC (but not the Canadian equivalent) allows for 15 amp duplex receptacles on 20 amp circuits so home builders looking to save a few pennies often use those. Besides, there are few if any, residential appliances out there that have NEMA 5-20 plugs. Then again hardwiring dishwashers was pretty common up until recently. |
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| ▲ | fsckboy 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | in traditional times it was customary to buy a few outfits high quality clothing that would last, and wear the same clothes for a week at a time, and then really boil them clean. This is the European market. post world war 2 consumer choice culture in the US led to people buying cheaper clothing but varying their outfits every day and cleaning them (with copious availability of water) with less intensity. once these patterns are established in the market, they become more like customary and it's what consumers expect of their appliances, detergents, etc. | |
| ▲ | beerandt 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 3) manufacturers placing energy star improvement quotas over safety in programming the cycles. | | |
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| ▲ | totallymike 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I can’t speak to Australian dishwashers, but trying to skip the video by catching a summary has failed you. Heating is discussed extensively in the video |
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| ▲ | Rebelgecko a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| American dishwashers are typically hooked up to hot water. Some will have heaters but they're not that powerful and they may only run for the main wash cycle |
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| ▲ | brianwawok 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not true. Dishwashers get cold very often. | | |
| ▲ | sgerenser 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | American dishwashers are always hooked up to the hot water supply. It’s right in the installation manual, and I’ve never seen one that wasn’t. | |
| ▲ | tenacious_tuna 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | ...what's not true? I can't tell what you're disagreeing with. |
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| ▲ | alvah 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This has always struck me as dumb, as until recently it was far cheaper to use your existing (gas-fired) hot water than to use a resistive element. However, with gas going out of fashion (and already hugely expensive in the Eastern states), and abundant solar PV, the calculus has changed. |
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| ▲ | selcuka 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem is that the first few litres of the water coming from the hot water pipe may be cold or warm. Therefore adding a resistive element is a better solution to guarantee a specific temperature. | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Gas (especially just in time) still works well for water heating even if you can use heat pumps for everything else. No sure when that will flip, I assume it will eventually. | | |
| ▲ | alvah 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Gas is already outlawed for new builds in Victoria, despite vast gas resources in the Bass Strait. Presumably that's the direction other states are heading too. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It was a direction some states in the USA were heading before Trump, but now… anyways there will come an economic/technological point where electricity just makes more sense like it does for almost everything else. No need to legislate a transition when one will happen naturally, but we aren’t there yet. |
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| ▲ | WheatMillington a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Same in NZ, never seen a dishwasher with a hot water connection. |
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| ▲ | kiwijamo 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The video explains that dishwashers sold in 110V countries often has a hot water connection as it's too slow heating water off a 110V/10A circuit so it is more efficent to utilise the hot water pipes. However we live in NZ, a 230V country so we get dishwashers that can heat water from cold fine off a 230V/10A circuit so no need for a hot water connection. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Modern heat pump dishwashers will heat water on 110V just fine, but you are looking at 3 hour wash/dry times anyways. My Bosch isn’t connected to hot water and even has a sanitize mode. |
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| ▲ | Titan2189 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you check the manual you might find that you can hook the single inlet pipe up to the hot water tap. | | |
| ▲ | SchemaLoad a day ago | parent [-] | | I feel like it's probably pointless. The dishwasher will be full of water before the hot water starts coming out the pipe. Depending on how far the dishwasher is from the water heater I guess. | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In most kitchens I've seen, the dishwasher is pretty close to the sink. In fact the sink and the dishwasher often share a shut-off valve. So if you run the water at the sink until it's hot, then start the dishwasher, it will get hot water. Problem is, that most dishwashers have a prewash and a main wash. By the time the prewash is finished and the main wash starts, the water in the supply line will have cooled off quite a bit. | | |
| ▲ | doubled112 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not just the shut off. My dishwasher's drain hose goes up into the sink's drain plumbing much higher than I would have thought. This almost made a mess when the sink was clogged and the dishwasher tried to pump the water out but had nowhere to go. | | |
| ▲ | tguvot 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can install airgap for this. In usa building code mandates it on multiple states | | |
| ▲ | olyjohn 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is that the point of the air gap? I can't even get a straight answer from plumbers on what it's for. I don't see how that could possibly help with a clogged drain, just seems like a secondary point for the drain water to come out. | | |
| ▲ | SchemaLoad 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm fairly sure the point of air gaps on drainage is to prevent sewerage water from backing up in to appliances if the sewerage line is blocked. It will instead spill on the floor where it will be more easily noticed and cleaned. | | |
| ▲ | db48x an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | That is exactly why they are required in restaurants. You wouldn’t want the sewage to back up into a sink where food or dishes might be. | |
| ▲ | throwaway173738 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s exactly what it’s for. If you block the sink drain and fill it with water, you can have water flow down the dishwasher drain hose and into the sump in the dishwasher. If that happens during the rinse cycle you’re rinsing with grey water. |
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| ▲ | bcoates 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Pumped out water has to go somewhere . With the airgap, it will either back out your garbage disposal or pour out your airgap into the sink basin, depending on the location of the blockage. The airgap causes the pump to be physically incapable of backfeeding the drinking water supply with dishwasher waste | | |
| ▲ | tguvot 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | iirc its less about contaminating drinking water (there is a valve and pump to get through. rather tricky) and more about waste getting into dishwasher during cycle and you getting contaminated dishes. my wife once decided to dump into garbage disposal a bunch of uncooked broccoli at once. it clogged garbage disposal and drain. when i tried to unclog it with plunger it backed into dishwasher (was hooked directly to garbage disposal bypassing airgap). took me hour to get everything out of dishwasher. |
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| ▲ | SAI_Peregrinus 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thus the video's advice (also in my dishwasher's manual) is to run the water from a nearby sink until it's hot before starting the dishwasher. Because it helps significantly to get hot water at the input when US dishwashers are limited to 1200W of heating. | |
| ▲ | db48x 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You should actually watch the video so that you can see the graphs; it’s not pointless. | |
| ▲ | pastor_williams 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When I do the dishes I hand wash those that can't be put in the dishwasher before I start the dishwasher. This ensures that the water that goes into the dishwasher is already hot. | |
| ▲ | cwillu 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | “16:12 The importance of purging cold water from the line” | |
| ▲ | Freedom2 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think the dishwasher will be "full of water" as it doesn't actually fill up - rather, it only uses 2 gallons maximum per cycle, about the amount that would be the bottom of basin of the washer. | | |
| ▲ | SchemaLoad 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's what I meant. The water drawn from the dishwasher is small enough to not even purge the cold water from the line in many houses. So you would just be wasting heat by filling the pipe with hot water while only taking the cold water from it. |
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| ▲ | tguvot a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump#Use_with_domes... | | |
| ▲ | Gigachad a day ago | parent [-] | | This seems like something that only makes sense when water is scarce but electricity is cheap. You’d be constantly losing heat to the poorly insulated pipes. | | |
| ▲ | Scoundreller 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And you're fully losing heat if you dump lukewarm water down the drain (instead of cycling it back to the heater) to eventually get hot water. | |
| ▲ | maxerickson 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People who do it more or less don't care about the price of energy (except maybe in the abstract). It's for comfort and convenience. | |
| ▲ | tguvot a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have all hot water pipes insulated in my house |
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| ▲ | devilbunny a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They do. I didn't realize this until my natural gas supply company decided to replace my meter on a Friday. Without alerting me ahead of time so that I could, you know, plan to be gone while my house had no hot water. Whenever natural gas supply is turned off in the US, for any reason, only the gas company can turn it back on. And they can't do so if there's a leak at all. You have to call a plumber to come out, detect the leaks, and fix them. After that, you can call the gas company to come back out (but not on a weekend) to turn it back on. And a same-day request for service requires someone to be home ALL DAY after it's called in. And this is how I ended up showering at work for three days that week after not having had one over the weekend. |
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| ▲ | ajb a day ago | parent | next [-] | | My parents used to have an old cooker which rather than having a spark button, had individual pilot lights for all of the hob burners and the grill. My mother was forever worried about whether one of the damn things had gone out (which they occasionally did). I think if you switched the supply off, switched it on again, and someone has left their house for a week, it might build up a significant amount of gas. Although they are supposed to be small enough not to. Presumably there were hardly any of those left now, but they can't assume they're all gone. | | |
| ▲ | jojohohanon a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Pilot lights are often designed so that the heat from the flame holds a bimetallic switch in the open position. Should the light go out, the bimetallic switch will shut as it cools. | | |
| ▲ | genter a day ago | parent [-] | | For water heaters and wall furnaces with a gas control valve, yes. For old stoves, they don't. | | |
| ▲ | K0balt 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | TBF the amount of gas used in old style pilots is really tiny. I’m sure it’s possible to accumulate dangerous quantities somehow, perhaps in a sealed subterranean basement if using propane instead of natural gas. Natural gas is mostly methane, which is lighter than air and easily escapes most structures. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Natural gas today is mostly methane, but in the past it often had large concentrations of CO. In 1950 you can turn the gas on and stick your head in the oven as a form of suicide - won't work anymore (unless you get the house to explode). | | |
| ▲ | Hnrobert42 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fascinating. I double-checked with ChatGPT (FWIW), and it confirmed. It said that currently, natural gas is extracted and shipped in its mostly pure form. In the mid-20th century, natural gas was "town gas," manufactured by heating Cole in the absence of oxygen. That produced a lot of carbon monoxide. |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes it's not a concern for kitchen stoves. The amount of gas/flow rate is too low. |
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| ▲ | bdavbdav 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That is an insane solution to the problem. I’d rather put a match to it. |
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| ▲ | Johnny555 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Whenever natural gas supply is turned off in the US, for any reason, only the gas company can turn it back on I had a seismic shutoff installed at my gas meter and the plumber who installed it had no problem turning off the gas and turning it back on when he was done. (and then turning it off again to demonstrate to me how it worked). He re-lit the water heater pilot light before he left. The gas company was not involved at all. | |
| ▲ | macintux 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > And this is how I ended up showering at work for three days that week after not having had one over the weekend. I discovered the unexpected value of a YMCA membership when my hot water was offline for a while. | |
| ▲ | 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | thomascountz a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As an American expat, I will use this story to explain some of the indignities of living in America. Thank you for sharing. | | |
| ▲ | devilbunny a day ago | parent [-] | | Every country I have ever discussed with its residents has something that, on its face, is a reasonable safety precaution (I definitely don’t want to blow up my house), but in practice is just a way to make your life miserable while helping the people who work there have an easier day. This just happens to be the one that affected me. Like modern gas water heaters that have electric ignition instead of pilot lights, because the one serious reason to have gas water heaters is that they work when there is no electricity. Now it’s just a price distinction. |
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| ▲ | Freedom2 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Whenever natural gas supply is turned off in the US, for any reason, only the gas company can turn it back on Doesn't match my experience. My colleagues and I are able to turn on or off the gas supply to our houses at will. | | |
| ▲ | teepo 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | often around here in texas, when the gas is turned off due to an issue, the gas company disables the meter, or even removes or bypasses it. And I live in gas land, where we have natural gas piped in to the kitchen, bathrooms, laundry, outside for grills, as well as the furnace. We've seen it a lot, if you call the gas company about smelling gas, they come and remove your gas meter until you hire a plumber to go find the leak. | | |
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| ▲ | mvdtnz 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sorry how is this story relevant? |
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| ▲ | fsckboy 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| traditionally (in household washing machine time) US houses were large and had a lot more hot water capacity for the whole house, and putting a heater into individual appliances was not necessary/cost effective. retrofitting old traditional houses (especially stone) with higher capacity plumbing was expensive and infeasible, so putting heaters in appliances was a cope for markets that needed it. |
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| ▲ | mattclarkdotnet 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Quite, another thing to add to the list of USAian weird exceptions. |
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| ▲ | vel0city a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A dishwasher cycle is usually only going to run for a specific period of time. Its more effective it if starts that time closer to the proper temperature rather than relying on waiting for the heater to get the temperature up to that time. Especially on the pre-rinse cycle, where the heater may or (probably) many not engage. |
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| ▲ | reaperducer a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| American dishwashers don't have their own heater? Some do, some don't. The ones that do vary in ability by overall dishwasher quality. The ones that don't are hooked up to the kitchen's hot water line. This is considered more energy efficient because a home's hot water heater (whether electric, gas, or another fuel) is better at heating the water in a bulk capacity than a tiny heater in the dishwasher. The downside is that the cold water between the big water heater and the dishwasher has to be purged first for it to be really effective. If your hot water heater is in the other side of the wall, no problem. If it's six rooms away, problem. |
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| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most of the new ones (at least higher end ones?) have heat pumps that heat water and handle drying. They are efficient enough to work on 110V, and the trade off is longer cycle times. Bonus: no more plastic utensils melting because they fell to the bottom resistive heating elements. | |
| ▲ | ninkendo 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Also, I’m way too lazy to look it up right now, but I’m quite certain I’ve heard of dishwashers that run the hot water for a little bit before letting it fill the basin. Like, I’m pretty sure this sort of thing is commonplace. It’s not like the engineers for heaterless dishwashers are just too stupid to realize there’s an obvious workaround for having to purge the line before filling the basin. Especially when the performance is so much measurably better when you do it. Like I said though, it’s a guess. It’s also possible efficiency certifications ding you for the excess water use. | |
| ▲ | WheatMillington a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hot water from the house supply isn't that hot though? My dishwasher gets MUCH hotter than the hot water supply... and I don't think the heater is "tiny" I think it's a rather substantial element. The dishwasher also doesn't need to heat up a "bulk" amount of water, just the amount of water used for washing the current load of dishes. | | |
| ▲ | db48x 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Watch the video; it makes a huge difference even though the hot water input is not as hot as the water can get when the dishwasher runs its heating element. Also the size of the heating element is irrelevant. What matters is the power dissipated. Most dishwashers in the US will use only about 900 watts of power even when plugged into a circuit that supports 1500 watts. In the EU they often hit 3000 watts. Even when just heating up a gallon or two of water that makes a huge difference. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Modern dishwashers, especially in Europe, are using heat pumps as well. They don’t really benefit from the extra voltage and watts anymore. | | |
| ▲ | db48x an hour ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but most people don’t have a modern dishwasher. It’s an appliance that lasts 20 to 30 years ergo most people have old dishwashers that were manufactured decades ago. |
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| ▲ | nomel a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My cheap GE dishwasher uses a hot water line, but also has an internal heating element to "boost" it, and help dry. My electric bill definitely suffers if cold water is used. | |
| ▲ | reaperducer a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hot water from the house supply isn't that hot though? Depends on how you have it set. My current and previous hot water heaters had thermostats which permitted adjusting the temperature. They also had warning labels on them about scalding water. If it's hot enough to scald, it's hot enough. The dishwasher also doesn't need to heat up a "bulk" amount of water, just the amount of water used for washing the current load of dishes. If you're washing dishes and someone is, or has recently, taken a shower; or someone is, or has recently, done laundry; or someone is, or has recently shaved or done any of the other dozen things that draw from the hot water heater, then the water is already hot and available and doesn't need to be heated all the way from cold by the dishwasher. A properly insulated hot water heater can retain heat for quite some time. |
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| ▲ | midnitewarrior a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| They do, but they are generally confined to 10 amps, so they do not heat quickly. |