| ▲ | exasperaited 6 days ago |
| Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? If you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious problem. Sure you could get locked up somewhere away from a lawyer for a few days which is terribly inconvenient —- that clearly is happening to British citizens -- but nobody is going to pin you to the ground until you can't breathe. We appear to be getting the benefit of some doubt (unless we have opinions). And if you are white and have an American accent you're going to be ignored entirely anyway. Perhaps carry any paperwork you need, definitely carry any medication you'll need for a few days. As to whether the officer will ignore evidence presented: that is clearly what they are being told to do. There are lawful citizens carrying their papers with them and there's video of an ICE agent mockingly saying "what papers?" Because on the ground it's not about immigration status really, it's about race and white power and sheer numbers of arrests to meet Stephen Miller's quotas. |
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| ▲ | roywiggins 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > you're white British with an accent from our shores, you don't have a very serious problem. Sure you could get locked up somewhere away from a lawyer for a few days which is terribly inconvenient This may be statistically true, but it's probably not very good advice. You might equally end up deported, now that they are running everyone through every database looking for things that might make you technically deportable that would never have come up under previous administrations: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g78nj7701o You used to be able to get bailed while stuff got sorted out. That has changed. Now they keep you locked up for months, not days. How long are you prepared to hold out before agreeing to be deported despite being in the right? Racial profiling is certainly happening, but anyone can find themselves in this situation if the wrong database pings when they walk through an airport, and once you have been dropped into immigration detention, relying on your ethnicity to get you out is not a sure thing. |
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| ▲ | exasperaited 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > This may be statistically true, but it's probably not very good advice. Oh it was partly sarcastic ("terribly inconvenient" being something of a Britishism for really quite awful) |
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| ▲ | mattgreenrocks 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Kristi Noem says no US citizens have been arrested so it's all OK, right? They've certainly been held in custody, though. Unfortunately, lots of people are going to arrive at a first-hand understanding of the oft-repeated systems adage: "the purpose of a system is what it does." |
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| ▲ | exasperaited 6 days ago | parent [-] | | She was lying, is what I meant. She is a liar. Re: Stafford Beer, we're beyond that in so many ways —- what in ordinary times might be considered an emergent, unthinking consequence of this system is what it was actually designed to do: the terror and arbitrary quality or even the perception that the USA is hostile to foreigners, is not an accidental, emergent quality of the operation. It's Stephen Miller's intent. If you were to take a truly Stafford Beer approach to this, then you might say the purpose of this system is to desensitise Americans to the arbitrary and/or violent expression of presidential power. But when you combine that with blowing up boats that contain no combatants and could have been interdicted, the use of selective prosecution, and the confidence with which they say, look, that is exactly what we're doing, even that feels like it is pretty close to text, certainly not unconscious subtext. |
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| ▲ | jimt1234 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And Justice Kavanaugh said that even if someone is stopped and question by ICE, all they have to do is prove they're a citizen, and everything will be fine; there's really no inconvenience at all. |
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| ▲ | exasperaited 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's such a shock he turned out to be a weasel, eh? He seemed like such a straight-backed, moral, uncompromised person in his confirmation hearings. |
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| ▲ | arrosenberg 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > And if you are white and have an American accent you're going to be ignored entirely anyway. For now, until they move on to persecuting political adversaries. |
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| ▲ | goatlover 5 days ago | parent [-] | | They've already been doing that, just not at scale yet. Trump's political enemies like Latisha James and officials who protest ICE or try to show up at ICE facilities to inspect them. |
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| ▲ | refurb 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| If the computer system says you are not a citizen but you produces then clearly one is wrong. It’s no different than a US citizen having an arrest warrant but then showing the cop a final disposition from the court showing the charges were dismissed. Whats next? It’s certainly not the cop just walking away. You detain the person until the discrepancy can be resolved. Are some innocent people going to be held in custody? Yes, in both cases. But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works. |
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| ▲ | 20after4 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | In this case you're detained indefinitely and not likely to see a judge for several months at best. If you ever see the light of day again. | | |
| ▲ | refurb 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Only in extraordinary cases where immigration status can’t be proven. If your document is suspect it’s examined. You can provide additional documents and interviewed about how you obtained your status. If you are a US citizen they can call your county that holds the birth certificate, take affidavits from parents or other family members. I mean the fact we haven’t heard of any US citizens detained for months (as you put it) is a good indication it’s not happening because you know the media would blast that story to the top for weeks. |
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| ▲ | exasperaited 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > But until a better approach can be found (other than just ignoring it), it’s how it works How it works now in Trump 2. Obama, notably, had a better approach, with a faster rate of deportation of illegal migrants, and he did so without absurd threatening intimidating cruelty, or ordering arbitrary kidnappings off the street by violent anonymised paramilitary thugs. There was a really quite high level of voluntary compliance with that system. The only reason this is all happening is that Stephen Miller wants to beat Obama's number: it consumes him that during Trump 1 they didn't get close to the performance of ICE under Obama 2. And he wants it to be showy, threatening, arbitrary, militarised and for it to overpoweringly favour white people. It's legitimately crazy to normalise it by framing it in normal terms like you are doing. There is nothing normal about this, nothing essential, procedure-based or unavoidable. It's an attempt to build a white police state. | | |
| ▲ | refurb 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I’m sorry you’re saying under Obama when the system said someone had a deportation order and the person produced fraudulent documents ICE just threw up their hands and said “oh well!”? | | |
| ▲ | exasperaited 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Don’t be an idiot. The point is that in Trump 2.0 ICE tactics have changed up from targeted raids (where a few US citizens might have had time to identify themselves as such in the process of an enforcemenr action) to untargeted sweeps where people are being dragged off the street based on their ethnicity and dumped in holding camps in other states by masked goons who are not at all interested in the process because they are literally working to quotas and bonuses. The rate of US citizens being arrested and held for days has increased exponentially and the process no longer cares about fairness; it cares about detention, intimidation and causing fear. This change is obvious, marked to anyone paying attention, and not remotely normal. | | |
| ▲ | refurb 4 days ago | parent [-] | | …are being dragged off the street based on their ethnicity and dumped in holding camps in other states by masked goons.. Do you have any evidence of this? Keep in mind you started calling me names. The rate of US citizens being arrested and held for days has increased exponentially and the process no longer cares about fairness; Presumably such cases would be all over the news. Could you point me to a few? Not claiming to be US citizens despite no evidence and a lengthy criminal history. I’m willing to change my opinion but it’s going to require facts not rumor and conjecture. | | |
| ▲ | exasperaited 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Jesus Christ. How can you be this ill-informed about an absolutely unprecedented buildup of violent, thuggish, masked immigration enforcement? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jun/15/trump-immigr... https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-... https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ice-agents-penske-rental... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/29/ice-detentio... https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/ice-makes-it-imp... https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-access-to-counsel-dep... https://www.propublica.org/article/immigrants-in-detention-c... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/oct/30/ice-hidden-d... https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2025/06/09/steph... https://www.propublica.org/article/ice-officer-shoves-woman-... https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/priv... https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/ice-nebraska-immigr... Now google "Kavanaugh stop". There has already been a Supreme Court case where ICE was challenged over their use of simple ethnicity to scoop up possible immigrants. Kavanaugh says: that's OK. And I am done. It's really not my fault if the news you are consuming is not covering what is happening. When I say don't be an idiot, I mean it in the sense of a useful idiot. Don't be uninformed. Don't be foolish. Don't let them get you to ignore what is happening. (Mods, I appreciate this breaks the "long list of links" rule, probably. But it is an answer to the question from a wide variety of media sources which have documented what amounts to a slow-motion atrocity) | | |
| ▲ | refurb 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Is there a specific link about Americans being detained for extended periods? And please stop the name calling. Not only is it against HN rules, you’re better than that. I clicked the first link and they were about Steven Miller? Then the second Propublica was about a lawyer having to drive far to see a client. The first Probulica article has more details but the examples include US citizens fighting with ICE and being detained. Do you have any data on US citizens detained beyond what the law allows (Propublica says up to 3 days is legal) without extenuating circumstances like aiding illegal immigration, assaulting law enforcement, etc? | | |
| ▲ | exasperaited 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The reason I linked to articles about Stephen Miller is a) because I mentioned him in this thread and how central he is to what is going on and b) because those articles explain what is going on and the baseless processes that have been put in place that see people snatched off the street on the basis of ethnicity alone and locked up in immigration centres far from their families and lawyers. Now if you want to continue sea-lioning, pick someone else. God help the USA if this eyes-closed standard of avoidance is commonplace. | | |
| ▲ | refurb 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I have to admit that the name calling and harsh language doesn’t help in convincing me of your argument. If anything it makes me wonder why someone confident of their opinion got so upset at a few basic questions. If you’re not in the mood to debate that’s fine, don’t. But regardless, the Supreme Court did not allow profiling based on ethnicity alone. “To be clear, apparently ethnicity alone cannot furnish reasonable suspicion” is the direct quote from the decision. What the court did allow are things like ethnicity, type of employment, location to be factors. That was based on the fact that those factors are directly related to job the government is trying to accomplish. If French Canadians working illegally at tech companies in Boston are not major issue then it makes sense not to stop people that fit those profiles. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
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