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bigstrat2003 15 hours ago

> It is however fully self-documented and interactive.

Unfortunately not true. I've fired up emacs once or twice, and couldn't even figure out how to save a document because it didn't show me how to do that. It might be more documented than vi (but that bar is *on the floor, vi has one of the most discovery-hostile user interfaces ever made), but it's not self-documented enough to just pick up and use with no instruction.

SoftTalker 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm pretty sure that if you have an unmodified install and no .emacs that is configured otherwise, when you start emacs you are prompted with a help screen that includes instructions on using the built-in tutorial. If you do that, you'll learn the basics in about 10-15 minutes. If you skip that, yeah it's pretty different from most other software conventions.

pkal 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And if you don't have anything configured, graphical Emacs will have a tool bar with a button to save and a menu bar that also gives the binding for the command.

GUI is different because there is no tool bar, but in Emacs 31 `xterm-mouse-mode' will be enabled by default so you can use the menu bar like a TUI.

Narishma 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yup. Vim is similar, except its tutorial takes more like 30 minutes.

SoftTalker 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah the entire emacs tutorial might take a long time. I don't think I ever went through it to "the end" but learning cursor movement, opening and saving files, etc. is right up front.

ksherlock 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's true (you can see it yourself with emacs -nw -q) and the picture is shown in the article. With a completely useless menubar.

prmoustache 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

vi is documented

Problem is most people start it the first time by providing a text file instead of firing it on its own and be greeted by the tutorial. I guess that is because they are blindly following another tutorial instead of trying to understand what they are doing.

My opinion is that "self documentation", "Getting started" pages and "tutorials" is a disease. People would actually get up to speed quicker by reading real manuals instead. They are just lured into thinking they will learn faster with tutorials because they get their first concrete results quicker but at this stage the harsh reality is thay they still usually don't know anything.

First time I used vi, I just had my operating system manual on my desk and I quickly learned to open man pages in a separate tty.

krs_ 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's a fair criticism, although once you learn how to access the documentation and where to look for/expext it I find that most things, including add-on packages and whatnot, can be learned from within Emacs itself just fine. But it does take some knowledge to get to that point in the first place for sure.

int_19h 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One thing that greatly helped this in the DOS / early Windows era was standardizing on F1 being the key for "online help" (meaning, usually, a hyperlinked document that shipped with the product). That was basically the only thing you had to know to start learning any app.

f1shy 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think is not fair at all, as a default installation has a menu bar, and you can save a file in file->save. While doing so it will tell you the shortcut.

someNameIG 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm pretty sure the built in tutorial shows you how to save a document.

TacticalCoder 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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