Maybe given our different niches we interact with different people? But I'm uncertain because I believe what I'm saying is highly visible. I forgot, which NeurIPS(?) conference were so many wearing "Scale is all you need" shirts?

  > My first impression there is that the toolbox has essentially run dry and we need something more to advance the field

This is my impression too. Empirical evidence is a great tool and useful, especially when there is no strong theory to provide direction, but it is limited.

  > My second impression is that empirical researchers in LLMs are mostly junior and significantly less critical of their own work and the work of others

But this is not my impression. I see this from many prominent researchers. Maybe they claim SIAYN in jest, but then they should come out and say it is such instead of doubling down. If we take them at their word (and I do), robotresearcher is not a junior (please, read their comments. It is illustrative of my experience. I'm just arguing back far more than I would in person). I've also seen members of audiences to talks where people ask questions like mine ("are benchmarks sufficient to make such claims?") with responses of "we just care that it works." Again, I think this is a non-answer to the question. But being taken as a sufficient answer, especially in response to peers, is unacceptable. It almost always has no follow-up.

I also do not believe these people are less critical. I've had several works which struggled through publication as my models that were a hundredth the size (and a millionth the data) could perform on par, or even better. At face value asks of "more datasets" and "more scale" are reasonable, yet it is a self reinforcing paradigm where it slows progress. It's like a corn farmer smugly asking why the neighboring soy bean farmer doesn't grow anything when the corn farmer is chopping all the soy bean stems in their infancy. It is a fine ask to big labs with big money, but it is just gate keeping and lazy evaluation to anyone else. Even at CVPR this last year they passed out "GPU Rich" and "GPU Poor" hats, so I thought the situation was well known.

  > if understanding is to build an internal world model, then quite a bit of work is going into that. Empirically, it would appear that they do, almost by necessity.

I agree a "lot of work is going into it" but I also think the approaches are narrow and still benchmark chasing. I saw as well was given the aforementioned responses at workshops on world modeling (as well as a few presenters who gave very different and more complex answers or "it's the best we got right now", but nether seemed to confident in claiming "world model" either).

But I'm a bit surprised that as a mathematician you think these systems create world models. While I see some generalization, this is also impossible for me to distinguish from memorization. We're processing more data than can be scrutinized. We seem to also frequently uncover major limitations to our de-duplication processes[0]. We are definitely abusing the terms "Out of Distribution" and "Zero shot". Like I don't know how any person working with a proprietary LLM (or large model) that they don't own, can make a claim of "zero shot" or even "few shot" capabilities. We're publishing papers left and right, yet it's absurd to claim {zero,few}-shot when we don't have access to the learning distribution. We've merged these terms with biased sampling. Was the data not in training or is it just a low likelihood region of the model? They're indistinguishable without access to the original distribution.

Idk, I think our scaling is just making the problem harder to evaluate. I don't want to stop that camp because they are clearly producing things of value, but I do also want that camp to not make claims beyond their evidence. It just makes the discussion more convoluted. I mean the argument would be different if we were discussing small and closed worlds, but we're not. The claims are we've created world models yet many of them are not self-consistent. Certainly that is a requirement. I admit we're making progress, but the claims were made years ago. Take GameNGen[1] or Diamond Diffusion. Neither were the first and neither were self-consistent. Though both are also impressive.

[0] as an example: https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.09540

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41375548

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41826402

▲ hodgehog11 a day ago | parent [-]

Apologies if I ramble a bit here, this was typed in a bit of a hurry. Hopefully I answer some of your points.

First, regarding robotresearcher and simondota's comments, I am largely in agreement with what they say here. The "toaster" argument is a variant of the Chinese Room argument, and there is a standard rebuttal here. The toaster does not act independently of the human so it is not a closed system. The system as a whole, which includes the human, does understand toast. To me, this is different from the other examples you mention because the machine was not given a list of explicit instructions. (I'm no philosopher though so others can do a better job of explaining this). I don't feel that this is an argument for why LLMs "understand", but rather why the concept of "understanding" is irrelevant without an appropriate definition and context. Since we can't even agree on what constitutes understanding, it isn't productive to frame things in those terms. I guess that's where my maths background comes in, as I dislike the ambiguity of it all.

My "mostly junior" comment is partially in jest, but mostly comes from the fact that LLM and diffusion model research is a popular stream for moving into big tech. There are plenty of senior people in these fields too, but many reviewers in those fields are junior.

> I've also seen members of audiences to talks where people ask questions like mine ("are benchmarks sufficient to make such claims?") with responses of "we just care that it works."

This is a tremendous pain point to me more than I can convey here, but it's not unusual in computer science. Bad researchers will live and die on standard benchmarks. By the way, if you try to focus on another metric under the argument that the benchmarks are not wholly representative of a particular task, expect to get roasted by reviewers. Everyone knows it is easier to just do benchmark chasing.

> I also do not believe these people are less critical.

I think the fact that the "we just care that it works" argument is enough to get published is a good demonstration of what I'm talking about. If "more datasets" and "more scale" are the major types of criticisms that you are getting, then you are still working in a more fortunate field. And yes, I hate it as much as you do as it does favor the GPU rich, but they are at least potentially solvable. The easiest papers of mine to get through were methodological and often got these kinds of comments. Theory and SciML papers are an entirely different beast in my experience because you will rarely get reviewers that understand the material or care about its relevance. People in LLM research thought that the average NeurIPS score in the last round was a 5. Those in theory thought it was 4. These proportions feel reflected in the recent conferences. I have to really go looking for something outside the LLM mainstream, while there was a huge variety of work only a few years ago. Some of my colleagues have noticed this as well and have switched out of scientific work. This isn't unnatural or something to actively try to fix, as ML goes through these hype phases (in the 2000s, it was all kernels as I understand).

> approaches are narrow and still benchmark chasing > as a mathematician you think these systems create world models

When I say "world model", I'm not talking about outputs or what you can get through pure inference. Training models to perform next frame prediction and looking at inconsistencies in the output tells us little about the internal mechanism. I'm talking about appropriate representations in a multimodal model. When it reads a given frame, is it pulling apart features in a way that a human would? We've known for a long time that embeddings appropriately encode relationships between words and phrases. This is a model of the world as expressed through language. The same thing happens for images at scale as can be seen in interpretable ViT models. We know from the theory that for next frame prediction, better data and more scaling improves performance. I agree that isn't very interesting though.

> We are definitely abusing the terms "Out of Distribution" and "Zero shot".

Absolutely in agreement with everything you have said. These are not concepts that should be talked about in the context of "understanding", especially at scale.

> I think our scaling is just making the problem harder to evaluate.

Yes and no. It's clear that whatever approach we will use to gauge internal understanding needs to work at scale. Some methods only work with sufficient scale. But we know that completely black-box approaches don't work, because if they did, we could use them on humans and other animals.

> The claims are we've created world models yet many of them are not self-consistent.

For this definition of world model, I see this the same way as how we used to have "language models" with poor memory. I conjecture this is more an issue of alignment than a lack of appropriate representations of internal features, but I could be totally wrong on this.

▲ godelski a day ago | parent [-]

  > The toaster does not act independently of the human so it is not a closed system

I think you're mistaken. No, not at that, at the premise. I think everyone agrees here. Where you're mistaken is that when I login to Claude it says "How can I help you today?"

No one is thinking that the toaster understands things. We're using it to point out how silly the claim of "task performance == understanding" is. Techblueberry furthered this by asking if the toaster is suddenly intelligent by wrapping it with a cron job. My point was about where the line is drawn. The turning on the toaster? No, that would be silly and you clearly agree. So you have to answer why the toaster isn't understanding toast. That's the ask. Because clearly toaster toasts bread.

You and robotresearcher have still avoided answering this question. It seems dumb but that is the crux of the problem. The LLM is claimed to be understanding, right? It meets your claims of task performance. But they are still tools. They cannot act independently. I still have to prompt them. At an abstract level this is no different than the toaster. So, at what point does the toaster understand how to toast? You claim it doesn't, and I agree. You claim it doesn't because a human has to interact with it. I'm just saying that looping agents onto themselves doesn't magically make them intelligent. Just like how I can automate the whole process from planting the wheat to toasting the toast.

You're a mathematician. All I'm asking is that you abstract this out a bit and follow the logic. Clearly even our automated seed to buttered toast on a plate machine needs not have understanding.

From my physics (and engineering) background there's a key thing I've learned: all measurements are proxies. This is no different. We don't have to worry about this detail in most every day things because we're typically pretty good at measuring. But if you ever need to do something with precision, it becomes abundantly obvious. But you even use this same methodology in math all the time. Though I wouldn't say that this is equivalent to taking a hard problem, creating an isomorphic map to an easier problem, solving it, then mapping back. There's an invective nature. A ruler doesn't measure distance. A ruler is a reference to distance. A laser range finder doesn't measure distance either, it is photodetector and a timer. There is nothing in the world that you can measure directly. If we cannot do this with physical things it seems pretty silly to think we can do it with abstract concepts that we can't create robust definitions for. It's not like we've directly measured the Higgs either. But what, do you think entropy is actually a measurement of intelligible speech? Perplexity is a good tool for identifying an entropy minimizer? Or does it just correlate? Is a FID a measurement of fidelity or are we just using a useful proxy? I'm sorry, but I just don't think there are precise mathematical descriptions of things like natural English language or realistic human faces. I've developed some of the best vision models out there and I can tell you that you have to read more than the paper because while they will produce fantastic images they also produce some pretty horrendous ones. The fact that they statistically generate realistic images does not imply that they actually understand them.

  > I'm no philosopher

Why not? It sounds like you are. Do you not think about metamathematics? What math means? Do you not think about math beyond the computation? If you do, I'd call you a philosopher. There's a P in a PhD for a reason. We're not supposed to be automata. We're not supposed to be machine men, with machine minds, and machine hearts.

  > This is a tremendous pain point ... researchers will live and die on standard benchmarks.

It is a pain we share. I see it outside CS as well, but I was shocked to see the difference. Most of the other physicists and mathematicians I know that came over to CS were also surprised. And it isn't like physicists are known for their lack of egos lol

  > then you are still working in a more fortunate field

Oh, I've gotten the other comments too. That research never found publication and at the end of the day I had to graduate. Though now it can be revisited. I once was surprise to find that I saved a paper from Max Welling's group. My fellow reviewers were confident in their rejections just since they admitted to not understanding differential equations the AC sided with me (maybe they could see Welling's name? I didn't know till months after). It barely got through a workshop, but should have been in the main proceedings.

So I guess I'm saying I share this frustration. It's part of the reason I talk strongly here. I understand why people shift gears. But I think there's a big difference between begrudgingly getting on the train because you need to publish to survive and actively fueling it and shouting that all outer trains are broken and can never be fixed. One train to rule them all? I guess CS people love their binaries.

  > world model

I agree that looking at outputs tells us little about their internal mechanisms. But proof isn't symmetric in difficulty either. A world model has to be consistent. I like vision because it gives us more clues in our evaluations, let's us evaluate beyond metrics. But if we are seeing video from a POV perspective, then if we see a wall in front of us, turn left, then turn back we should still expect to see that wall, and the same one. A world model is a model beyond what is seen from the camera's view. A world model is a physics model. And I mean /a/ physics model, not "physics". There is no single physics model. Nor do I mean that a world model needs to have even accurate physics. But it does need to make consistent and counterfactual predictions. Even the geocentric model is a world model (literally a model of worlds lol). The model of the world you have in your head is this. We don't close our eyes and conclude the wall in front of you will disappear. Someone may spin you around and you still won't do this, even if you have your coordinates wrong. The issue isn't so much memory as it is understanding that walls don't just appear and disappear. It is also understanding that this also isn't always true about a cat.

I referenced the game engines because while they are impressive they are not self consistent. Walls will disappear. An enemy shooting at you will disappear sometimes if you just stop looking at it. The world doesn't disappear when I close my eyes. A tree falling in a forest still creates acoustic vibrations in the air even if there is no one to hear it.

A world model is exactly that, a model of a world. It is a superset of a model of a camera view. It is a model of the things in the world and how they interact together, regardless of if they are visible or not. Accuracy isn't actually the defining feature here, though it is a strong hint, at least it is for poor world models.

I know this last part is a bit more rambly and harder to convey. But I hope the intention came across.

▲

robotresearcher 13 hours ago | parent [-]

> You and robotresearcher have still avoided answering this question.

I have repeatedly explicitly denied the meaningfulness of the question. Understanding is a property ascribed by an observer, not possessed by a system.

You may not agree, but you can’t maintain that I’m avoiding that question. It does not have an answer that matters; that is my specific claim.

You can say a toaster understands toasting or you can not. There is literally nothing at stake there.

▲

godelski 12 hours ago | parent [-]

You said the LLMs are intelligent because they do tasks. But the claim is inconsistent with the toaster example.

If a toaster isn't intelligent because I have to give it bread and press the button to start then how's that any different from giving an LLM a prompt and pressing the button to start?

It's never been about the toaster. You're avoiding answering the question. I don't believe you're dumb, so don't act the part. I'm not buying it.

	▲	robotresearcher 11 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I didn’t describe anything as intelligent or not intelligent. I’ll bow out now. Not fun to be ascribed views I don’t have, despite trying to be as clear as I can.