Remix.run Logo
seabrookmx 7 hours ago

> The joysticks are connected to a pilot hydraulic circuit, which proportionally moves the cylinders in the main hydraulic circuit which ultimately moves the excavator joints

I've actually spent a decent amount of time running an excavator, as my Dad owns a construction / road building company. It was a great summer job!

An important note about the pilot hydraulics is that they _provide feedback to the operator_. I would encourage any system that moves these controls on behalf of a remote human operator or AI to add strain gauges or some other way to measure this force feedback so that this data isn't lost.

The handful of "drive by wire" pieces of equipment that my Dad or other skilled operators in my family have ran were universally panned, because the operators are isolated from this feedback and have a harder time telling when the machine is struggling or when their inputs are not sufficiently smooth. In the automotive world, skilled drivers have similar complaints about fully electronic steering or braking systems, as opposed to traditional vacuum or hydraulic boosting approaches where your foot still has a direct hydraulic connection to the brake pads.

roamerz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have a 20 ton Takeuchi and I don’t recall any feedback in the controls at all. The feedback I use is from the seat and sounds of the machine - well besides of course visual of course.

I cannot imagine this being useful to me unless the virtual operators cab closely mimicked an actual machine. It would have to have audio from the machine and be on a platform that tilted relative to the real thing. It would also need 270 degrees of monitors with a virtual mirror to see behind. On the front monitor, minimally, would need the to see vertically up and down too.

I also imagine all of this would be more useful to seasoned operators who can do most things on excavators in their sleep (definitely not me lol)

jashmota 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

The way I think about this - we should not have multi screens. Human field of vision is 60 degrees for central and about 120 degrees binocular. The bucket of the excavator is way narrower than this which means actual task doesn't require wide vision.

So if we are able to have really good autonomous safety layers to ensure safe movements, and dynamically resize remote teleop windows, you'd make the operator more efficient. So while we stream 360 degree view, we get creative in how we show it.

That's on the vision side. We also stream engine audio, and do haptic feedback.

Takeuchi are interesting! Rare ones to have blades even on bigger sizes - is that why you got one?

jashmota 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're right! This is exactly why we like to do mechanical actuation - we are able to achieve bilateral telepresence, which essentially gives the torque (haptic) feedback over the internet! So on small excavators, you can absolutely feel the resistance. We also stream the engine audio, which tells you how hard the hydraulic pump is working. Operators like our system for these reasons :)

I'd like to get a chance to talk to you and your Dad to get feedback. How do I reach you? My email is contact at useflywheel dot ai

opwieurposiu 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, and you also get feedback from your butt as the machine tips and wobbles, particularly on smaller machines. Hearing the engine straining helps also. Often you can not clearly see what you are digging, this feedback lets you know if you are running into a rock or something.

One big advantage would be cameras mounted on the boom and rear view cameras, as many machines have obstructed views.

jashmota 5 hours ago | parent [-]

We're indeed streaming the audio and have haptic feedback. My hypothesis is the seat vibration isn't as helpful. It's sub optimal and operators would be far more productive without it. We would do a paper when we have enough data on this. We're also putting more cameras but streaming a lot of them at once is tricky.

Redster 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Humbly, have you used excavators of varying sizes on uneven ground? I have and would suggest it's more important than you might think. But if you've operated them, you might know better than I.

Also, teleoperation is likely to produce lower-quality operation data than hooking up to locally operated excavators. Just a thought.

jashmota 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I might be less experienced than you - I've operated upto 38 tons on maximum 15 degrees incline. I wasn't moving tracks a lot when I did that. Would like to hear what scenarios you'be been in and how would you describe your experience? Maybe I could try those out to learn more!

jeffbee 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My car with its drive-by-wire brakes has a brake feedback simulator that gives the driver the kind of feeling associated with power-boosted hydraulic brakes. This is by far the most expensive single component in the car. Arguably these are just expensive accommodations for human flaws. A self-driving car wouldn't need them. Can't the self-driving system act directly on data like pressure, flow, and displacement?

jashmota 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's indeed what we're trying to test to the extreme - to see how far we could go with just vision. We haven't done heavy excavation workflows yet, but we have some early success with some excavation workflows with just vision input and joystick action output (even without joint angle feedback!). We're betting on having really huge data with compact observation input and experiment to see if it holds water. If not we can always dial it down and add more sensors/feedback.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe it doesn't matter for a car because feeling the car's motion tells you most of what you need to know. A car is not meant to touch anything but the road, in normal conditions. I think steering is the only case where force feedback is very important for a car - In the winters up here, I can feel the steering go loose when I hit a patch of ice.

I imagine an excavator, meant to touch and dig through things, and lift things, benefits from force feedback for the same reason VR would.

Have you played those VR sword games? BeatSaber works great because you're cutting through abstract blobs that offer no resistance. But the medieval sword-slashing games feel weird because your sword can't impact your opponent.

I saw a video recently of a quadcopter lifting heavy objects. When it's overloaded, it can't maneuver because all its spare power is spent generating lift to maintain altitude. If the controls had force feedback, the copter's computer could tell you "I'm overloaded, I can't move" by putting maximum resistance on the sticks.

jashmota 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Interestingly, we had some people try out VR teleop: https://x.com/Scobleizer/status/1970245161306464667

https://x.com/jash_mota/status/1969091992140304703

I think force feedback is key for small excavators, but not really true for 25+ tons excavators. Hence how easy it is for operators to accidentally kill someone with it.

cyberax 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are no drive-by-wire brakes in the US or Europe for regular cars. Your car's actuator moves the piston that is mechanically linked to your pedal.

So even if the electric system fails completely, you can still actuate the brakes.

jeffbee 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You can split hairs all you want. In my car the master cylinder that is connected to the pedals is only connected to the brake hydraulic system through a parallel (i.e. redundant) set of normally-open valves that are closed by solenoids when the ECU starts. When the ECU is functioning normally, the brake pedal is a video game controller, totally isolated from the hydraulic brake circuit by the closed master cut valves. In this normal operating mode, only the computer can pressurize the brake system using its second master cylinder, driven by an electric motor.

When the car is off or the system loses power, the master cut valves return to their open position, and the brakes are pressurized manually, like an old car without power brakes.

This is "brake-by-wire" to everyone, except apparently you.