I see this sentiment from time to time in the HN crowd, and I’m really interested in understanding more about it.

My first reaction to this? I think that you’re using “manipulate” to describe a process where somebody doesn’t want to do something, and make them do it anyway, but without using force. It feels like this has to be rooted in some kind of denial of other people’s free will—that they are somehow incapable of choosing to help you or agree with you, and can only be tricked. It seems like you would need to believe that other people don’t genuinely like you or value you.

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kaechle 3 days ago | parent [-]

Those are some bounding leaps you made without much context. Are you in sales?

Kidding aside, my first reaction was: perhaps the occasions they were aware of their own influence were ones in which they didn't much care for the outcome. Or maybe a conflict of interest, like trying to win over a hiring manager for a position you know you'll hate.

I don't think cajoling or persuading others inherently manipulative, but I can think of a lot of examples where doing so feels grimy.

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klodolph 3 days ago | parent [-]

> I don't think cajoling or persuading others inherently manipulative, but I can think of a lot of examples where doing so feels grimy.

What I am trying to do is understand why sema4hacker, and some others, feel that influencing people is manipulative. So if you pop into the conversation and say that you don’t feel the same way that sema4hacker does, that doesn’t really help me understand sema4hacker’s perspective.

That’s the bounding leap here and I want to pull it apart, dissect it. The bounding leap from “I influenced somebody” to “I manipulated them”. I think there’s not just raw, random feelings here, but some kind of rational thought that I want to understand.

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kipchak 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm one of those people-For clarity I'm referring to influence in the active 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' sense. To me "influence" and "manipulation" seem like forms of persuasion but with positive and negative connotations, like "public relations" versus "propaganda".

None of them are necessarily bad on their own, but the choice of words seems like it depends on the perspective who is perceiving or describing the influencer/manipulator and their motives. Influence can be seen as manipulation and manipulation seen as influence.

For example someone who dislikes an "ifluencer" is probably more likely to think of them as manipulating their audience into buying products. Convincing someone to join a religious group could be seen as positive influence by current members, and manipulation by an outsider.

Clarity of purpose from the person doing the persuading is not necessarily clear as well. There is likely there's likely a mixture of factors motivating them to persuade, including some to their own benefit. People, especially those who think they are doing good, will also generally grade themselves on a bit of a curve and rationalize their actions towards being positive, especially in moral and emotional contexts.

	▲	klodolph 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		I think manipulation is just negative influence, and influence doesn’t really have either positive or negative connotations.