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ajross 3 days ago

This is junk science. The illustration is absolutely bonkers: https://cdn8.openculture.com/2019/02/28230224/cavedoodles.jp...

It's literally a bunch of graphic design output showing clean font glyphs! Needless to say, there is no, I mean zero evidence of any kind of symbology of the fidelity being shown. You'll get a petroglyph here or there, and that's it. Stretching those across whole continents and inferring "language" is just ridiculous.

This is, like mid-tier video game art.

bbor 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Well yeah, the illustration on some website (that may or may not actually be in her book) isn't scholarly evidence, that's true. But you're not giving her enough credit here, by a long shot!

1. She's been doing this since 2011, her TED talk a decade ago racked up 2M views, and this book landed a positive review from the curator of the Smithsonian's "hall of human origins"; she's not some rando. Here's her (somewhat outdated?) Google Scholar page: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=QaDkX_UAAAAJ

2. The actual evidence here is supposedly "a unique database that holds more than 5,000 signs from almost 400 sites across Europe". It could still be misleading of course, but it's a lot more than just a website diagram.

3. You putting "language" in scare-quotes is completely unnecessary, as that's not what she's arguing at all. Rather, she's saying that these symbols should be treated as a milestone on the way to written language ("first indicators of our human ancestors capacity for symbolic meaning"), not full grammars in-and-of-themselves. Given that evolutionary linguistics is in a "pre-Gallilean" phase at best (to quote Chomsky), I'd say any well-cited contributions to the field should be welcomed! Maybe she's wrong, but in a way that leads us to what's right.

I came to the comments to be dubious as well, so I appreciate where you're coming from. But IMO "ridiculous" is going way too far...

ajross 3 days ago | parent [-]

> You putting "language" in scare-quotes is completely unnecessary, as that's not what she's arguing at all.

... then why is it in the headline?!

I'm not discounting the possibility that someone somewhere underneath this has done something approximating real science[1]. I'm saying that the link I clicked on, and the hypothesis it's pushing, is garbage. And I stand by that.

[1] Though "I made a database" might not rise to the level of clickworthy.

GartzenDeHaes 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The uniform scale of the symbols is deceptive since the source drawings have substantially different sizes. The hand outline is hand sized, for instance.

jonny_eh 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

TED sadly has a history of promoting pseudo-science, this one even got a standing ovation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwPoM7lGYHw

3 days ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
pndy 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

So, "Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses" /s

Decided to lurk around and it seems it's a pretty long going thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

jampekka 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The illustration is of course just glyphs, but plenty of such symbols are found in e.g. paintings and stone and bone carvings. Not saying it's writing, but these kinds of symbols are not uncommon findings.

Mistletoe 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

If you give me a stick and some sand these are some of the most common things I would be able to draw. I’m not sure that makes it a universal language. Every culture with a snake is going to have a squiggle line that looks like a snake. Everyone has a hand so they will make a hand print, etc. An X, a spiral, something that looks like a branch.

dboreham 3 days ago | parent [-]

You had to bring Elon into this..

ajross 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, but for every single instance of every single one of those glyphs, someone needs to publish a paper substantiating similarity to whatever that archetype is. You can't just put up a pretty font diagram and announce "They use the hand symbol here".

This is the same thing as all those stories about the Impossible Black Hole That Should Not Be There illustrated with something the graphics department threw together in photoshop.

jampekka 3 days ago | parent [-]

Such work e.g. here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-020-00704-x

ants_everywhere 3 days ago | parent [-]

hatching and crosses are used even today on tools to make them easier to grip. We'd expect them on smooth and hard tools made of bone or rock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knurling

jampekka 3 days ago | parent [-]

These patterns are found in paintings too.

tom_ 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Next thing you know, they'll be telling us that Neanderthals were the intellectual equals of humans.