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keiferski 6 days ago

Something I don’t quite get about these new social networks that are clearly aimed at technical people: my model of a truly decentralized social network is more like a network of privately hosted personal websites, à la the original web. Not yet another platform I need to make an account to interact on separately.

Have there been any attempts to make more of a “network” that incentivizes operating personal websites but adds a mechanism for typical social media features like chat, a feed, etc. in a centralized way? The only thing I can think of is RSS, and that is only a way to follow content publication.

jeroenhd 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

"Accounts" in this case are just a public/private key pair. You can host your own relay (and nobody will hear what you have to say unless they subscribe to it), but you can use the same public key ("account") on any nostr relay. You can broadcast your posts to all relays, or just some, or just your own, depending on how you feel.

You can, in theory, generate a new key for every post if you want to. The relays don't care.

This is something Mastodon etc. lacks (accounts are tied to servers, so you can't move your self-hosted Mastodon to your self-hosted Akkomo without keeping Mastodon running, and you can't move from one instance to another if your instance admin doesn't let you).

On the other hand, the complete lack of account recovery, even for sysadmins, is something many people will have an issue with.

BinaryIgor 5 days ago | parent [-]

Yes; and because your key is your identity, losing your key or having it stolen basically means that you have to start from scratch; there is no "I forgot my password" mechanism

Cameri 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

For identities to be truly decentralized, there's no one you could run to to ask permission to change your password. Either you own your identity, or someone else does.

Your identity, BinaryIgor only exists in ycombinator, and for as long as ycombinator allows it, and only ycombinator can allow you to change your password. I can't recall how accounts are created here, but likely it also depends on linking it to your email identity as well. If ycombinator disappears, your identity goes down with it.

BinaryIgor 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

My Nickname on Hacker News - yes; but I own this Identity on at least one more platform and my own website, so it's not that simple :) In general, I think given Identity is more about reputation and familiarity that you gain with people by doing or delivering something under particular name in one or multiple contexts/platforms

jazzyjackson 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Doesn't change the fact that Nostr doesn't have a key rotation mechanism

yellowapple 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's where I feel ATproto strikes the right balance: it's basically “What if Nostr but the identity lives on a potentially-self-hostable server instead of the client?”, avoiding that risk of “oh no I lost my private key” while still providing the means to control where one's identity lives and move elsewhere if necessary (even if the current server is uncooperative or no longer exists).

BinaryIgor 5 days ago | parent [-]

Isn't it centralized though, thus defeating the whole purpose?

yellowapple 3 days ago | parent [-]

That depends on what “centralized” means (i.e. whether we're conflating “decentralized” with “federated”, as is usually the case when talking about systems like ATproto, ActivityPub, Nostr, etc.).

In any case, AFAICT it's possible to self-host every part of the ATproto stack, and people have indeed done that. Third-party PDSes, relays, and applications/clients can talk to one another and with the ones Bluesky PBC operates. That satisfies the meaning of “decentralized” as most people use it (at least as well as other federated protocols like ActivityPub and email satisfy it).

athrowaway3z 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't use nostr, but this is one of those really upsetting things where technical people are utterly blinded by their dogma.

How did you register as BinaryIgor? You and ycombinator exchanged a pubkey. ycombinator registered theirs with a DNS register, while you threw yours away.

ycombinator has 100% ownership over your identity. There is no way to prove to me you are you without ycombinator.

Having ycombinator be your naming service is useful, and so any distributed system would be wise to re-implement an analog.

But what a supernet signing scheme offers is in addition to "forgot my password" it also has a "ycombinator disappeared / betrayed our trust" feature where your ID and messages exists outside ycombinator - as long as you remember your password.

What we're currently doing: throwing away our keys and let ycombinator resign our messages with theirs; is bad for the power balance between user and the admin.

BinaryIgor 5 days ago | parent [-]

That's a fair point, but as I've pointed out above, I think that the question of Identity is much broader and more nuanced than just owning a set of keys or nicknames; if you're curious I've written about it here: https://binaryigor.com/centralized-vs-decentralized-identity...

t1E9mE7JTRjf 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's more or less how nostr works, except instead of websites there are notes (a generic type which can be anything - including website content), and instead of servers there are 'relays'.

keiferski 6 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah the more I read about it, the more it does sound somewhat similar to what I was proposing.

However, the copywriting there is not in this vein at all. IMO the metaphor of personal websites is a simple, universal one that most people can understand. Nostr seems unintelligible to anyone that isn't pretty technical.

t1E9mE7JTRjf 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's for sure how it is right now. A mix of early adopter techy types. In this case (nostr.com) it's just a website, and not actually apart of nostr. In the same way that weather.com isn't a spokesperson for the weather

nout 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unfortunately there isn't a single good metaphor to use for novel thing like this. Some people would get the websites metaphor better, some people get twitter metaphor better, some people get "own your own keys" metaphor. People may be scared of doing their own websites and people have no idea what's involved in that... so help us find the right metaphors here :)

jb55 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

most nostr apps you can click a single button to create an account, since it just generates a keypair. no email verification, nothing. what is simpler than that?

you don't even need to know how to host something on a server, the relays do that for you.

brisky 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You might want to check out Really Simple Decentralized Syndication (RSDS) https://writer.did-1.com/

otabdeveloper4 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> more like a network of privately hosted personal websites

Can't monetize that.

littlecranky67 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

You can zapp on nostr - lightning based payments. There were efforts to bring micro payments to the regular Web, but in the end it failed because in the traditional finance world, you can't just send 2cents to someone on the other side of the world - because intermediaeries will charge you 50cents of fees for that.

BlueTemplar 6 days ago | parent [-]

Pretty sure that the main reason Flattr (whether 1.0 or 2.0) failed, was because it wasn't backed by the Silicon Valley ?

littlecranky67 5 days ago | parent [-]

I think more due to subscription nature. You had to pay 10€ every month. With zaps I can send someone 1c or 1€ whenever I want.

BlueTemplar 3 days ago | parent [-]

But that's worse in terms of keeping your expenses in check...

keiferski 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

No, but maybe you can monetize the "connector" system.

andunie 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why do you say they're "clearly aimed at technical people"? Do you know the minds of people who created them?

keiferski 6 days ago | parent [-]

At least in the case of Nostr, the introduction text is definitely written for someone that understands tech vocab:

Nostr is an apolitical communication commons. A simple standard that defines a scalable architecture of clients and servers that can be used to spread information freely. Not controlled by any corporation or government, anyone can build on Nostr and anyone can use it.

CaptArmchair 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This an interesting question. Forgive my meandering take on this.

We already have a mix of technologies to achieve that effect. Sort of. Simplified, you can host a personal website on shared hosting, a VPS, or wherever, at the same time chat via IRC or XMPP, and use RSS to create feeds to share tidbits about yourself. Nothing stops you from combining different programs and services to get that.

So, what are the problems you're actually trying to solve here?

Do you want to improve accessibility, that is: lower the bar for non-technical people to join feeds, publish their own thoughts, join group chats,...?

Do you want to improve discoverability across what we already have? Make it easier for everyone to serendipitous finding information? Like, search, recommendations, linking, pub/sub, and so on?

Do you want to solve sustainability? Developing models that also cover the expenses involved i.e. either covering the costs in maintaining tech, or redistributing the costs?

Do you want to solve governance, the issue of providing enough affordances to communities to moderate/govern themselves?

These are big questions, and once you try to solve them together, you'll have to make trade-offs, inevitably. Decentralizing everything sounds great, but that has an impact on discoverability, as well as accessibility. Not having another account sounds great, but that hides complex debates about online and offline, distributed identities.

Even more so, if you dig deeper, our approach these affordances is based on our values. And those can be very different depending on who you talk to. That's where things enter the murky, ambiguous teritory of sociology, culture, and so on where few absolute truths are offered.

That doesn't mean we should just accept throw up hands and accept the status quo, though. Talking in terms of a single "network" or a single "protocol" is too crude to approach these questions. The intrinsic value the Internet offers us, can be found in a handful foundational design principles like standardization, composition, openness,... which allow us to create many networks that host many diverse communities. Each to their own isn't a bad thing as it's too naive to think that there's a catch-all solution that caters to everyone's needs. Balkanization, such as it is, becomes really problematic if it erodes common beliefs we hold about a free, open and accessible digital global network.

Many "technical" people who are active in these niches like Mastodon, Nostr, the Fediverse, or even the Smolweb, do so because they are steeped in a particular (counter)culture that espouses the same values that also led to the birth of the early Internet. Cyberspace really is a marketplace of ideas first. Technologies are an expression of that.

jonstaab 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Very thoughtful points. One thing about nostr is that it does tend to balkanize due to the technical architecture, allowing for different groups of people to use it in different ways (different relay policies, client features, filtering, etc). But the tradeoffs you list are real, and enforce real constraints (the biggest of which is bare keys as identifiers). Many of these constraints can be designed away, which keeps me optimistic. We've had 30 years of research and development into password management, but far less into end-user key management. Even if nostr itself has some fatal flaw, I think a lot of interesting ideas are coming out of it, just because it provides a very different set of affordances for digital spaces.

keiferski 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, I mean I am not personally working on a project in this space, nor do I have any super-strong feelings about it.

It's more that I like personal websites, from both an ownership and creative perspective. And so I wish there were more approaches which attempted to incentivize that model without creating a complicated new protocol, platform, etc. That might involve making it easier to create and self-host websites, an opt-in directory of personal sites with chat + forums attached, or something else like that.

CaptArmchair 6 days ago | parent [-]

For what it's worth, pubnix - public accessible UNIX systems - were/are that to an extent. You'd get a free account on some shared system, you log in via a terminal, and you get access to all those things: gopher/gemini/web hosting, chat, bulletin boards,...

Some modern day examples include: https://tilde.town/, https://tilde.club/ and https://sdf.org/.

But shell access doesn't appeal to non-tech users. It's the difference between engineering the electricity in your own house to become self-sufficient, and just expecting to magically get power when you plug a device in the socket.

apitman 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

IndieWeb?