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j4coh 4 days ago

I don’t seem to even get this effect, the map looks upside down not mind blowing. If I turn a mug over it’s not a mind blowing new thing, it’s an upside down mug.

strken 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Steady on now: there's an interesting psychological effect going on. A well known art exercise is to draw a subject upside down, particularly a person or a scene with a clear usual orientation.

When you take something you're very familiar with and turn it upside down, you see all the details - volume, shape, distance between points, geometric similarity, colour - with fresh eyes. With art, it becomes easier to draw a human figure because it discourages symbol drawing. With a map, I find it helps me realise how close certain points are to each other, how small politically significant regions are, which lattitude different climate bands sit at, and so on.

A mug is a pretty boring object which we're all used to seeing upside down and which doesn't have many interesting features, so of course turning it upside down will not reveal anything interesting.

j4coh 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

If you're sitting on the opposite side of a table looking at a map that a person on the other side laid out in front of them, you don't just see the map from the other side? You instead see details about volume, shape, distance between points, geometric similarity, colour, and so on? I sincerely just see the same map even if I'm across the table, except flipped. I'm not sure how it would impact my drawing a map, though that isn't really what the article talks about.

Can you read upside-down or does it become a jumble of lines? I can read upside-down with no special effort so maybe this is canceling something out.

strken 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I can read upside down, but it's an acquired skill. I can't read at a 90 degree angle without difficulty, although I could probably learn to.

It's not that I don't see the map from the other side, it's that when it's the right way up I see all the extra information I have about it. For example, I bet an eye tracker would show me focusing on Western Europe, Central Asia, Australia, and the US. When the map is flipped, I see it closer to how it really is because I can ignore those preconceived ideas more easily. I don't see e.g. the Iberian peninsula as represented by a land mass, I see the actual land mass, and can concentrate on its size and distance more easily.

This is really interesting!

BrandoElFollito 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree. In addition I can relate to elements (such as imagining the road from Paris to Munich), it just takes more processing.

1718627440 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I too have no problems reading upside-down, but for some reason I do find it hard to read sidewards.

sanderjd 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is all very interesting, but I'm sorry, personally I just feel the same as the poster you replied to. I don't experience this as anything weird, I just experience it as if I'm looking at a map from the top.

vasco 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also probably every single kid that ever played with a map has turn it around a million times, this is a very naive 2deep4u kinda post.

bonoboTP 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Same when people get their minds blown about the sizes of countries at different latitudes. Feels like I'm the only one who played with a globe as a kid...

jcattle 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your analogy is not quite appropriate. An upside down mug is "wrong". The mug looses its meaning and you have to turn it around to use it as a mug.

That's not the case with a map. An "upside down" map is just as valid as a right side up map.

The fact that it is upside down is not supposed to mind blowing, it's the fact that it isn't upside down at all. We are just used to it being represented this way up, but there's nothing in the physical world which prescribes north to be up.

vladms 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> An "upside down" map is just as valid as a right side up map.

Is it as useful and/or efficient though? I could write a phrase in English from right to left and if you really wanted you could read it, but it would be highly inefficient.

An efficient society sometimes has to pick conventions (how to write text, how to print a map, what characters to use, etc) and I find not interesting to point that other conventions could have been used.

jcattle 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I mean, to me at least it is also interesting. Like Japanese writing or Arabic. It's interesting because it is different, there's a different predominant convention. You can also think further about how the writing convention might have had an impact on culture and the society itself.

Also thinking of maps and Japan: where I am from (Germany) public overview maps of parks or street maps usually have north as up. In Japan however it is very common for those maps to have up as the cardinal direction you are looking at the map at. So if you are looking at the map in a western direction, the map will have west up. So for walking the map is straight up, backwards down, left left and right right.

Like that it is very easy to know which way to go. Want to go to some place that is on the left on the map? Turn left!

542354234235 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

In the writing example, something that seems inconsequential like right-to-left or left-to-right, does have real implications. Since most people are right-handed, writing right-to-left means they develop writing styles to keep from smearing the ink. In left-to-right writing, it is unnecessary. The consequence is that the minority left-handed people are just taught a mirror of right-handed writing, making left handedness much more of a burden in a left-to-right writing culture.

vladms 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, I think there are many interesting things to consider about maps (like projection, orientation maps fixed on a panel/wall, orientation for digital maps). All those discussion will also transmit the basic idea (there is no "good/bad" way) while also discussing other problems ("can't represent area well", "people like different options", "different cases require different orientation").

ashoeafoot 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

CapsAdmin 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe a better analogy would be English and why it's written and read left to right.

To me at least, it feels very wrong to see English written right to left, but I also know it wouldn't be objectively wrong.

potato3732842 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

English (and latin for that matter) is written/read left to right because that is more convenient for the overwhelming majority of the population that is right handed when using easily smudged waxed tablets, wet ink, etc, etc.

Likewise, maps are traditionally "north up" because most of the population lives north of the equator so that's where most maps hailed from and if you're north of the equator having a "north up" map makes celestial navigation slightly easier.

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
isqueiros 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

a mug cannot function when upside down and yet when you change the arbitrary orientation of a map it can still function the same you literally missed the point of the _title_ of the article, quite impressive

j4coh 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I can turn my hand over and it still functions. I can turn lots of things over that still function. I can even set something on top of my upside-down mug. This is not mind blowing to me, your mileage may vary. I also don't seem to have this association with "the bottom of things is bad" so maybe that's why it doesn't seem so shocking or clever to flip things over.

dudeinjapan 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

ohhh… so thats why my coffee keeps spilling everywhere. I just thought my mug was defective. Hole faces upward: got it. These things really should come with an instruction manual.

Levitz 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The direction with which you perceive the mug is not any more arbitrary than that of the map, you are just prioritizing the direction gravity takes rather than its opposite, same as magnetism and the north.

You can change your entire system of reference and the setup still makes sense. Same with the map.

542354234235 4 days ago | parent [-]

A map is a flat, visual representation of an area, showing its features and locations using symbols and drawings. The system of reference can change, like magnetism and north, and the map still functions as a map.

A drinking mug is a large, cylindrical cup with a handle, typically made of earthenware, used to hold hot beverages like coffee or tea. The orientation relative to gravity is fundamental to the functioning of the mug. It is not arbitrary.

j4coh 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Okay, forget gravity. If you stand on your head and look at the mug, do you get lots of insights about a mug that you wouldn't have had standing upright? Does it look different, or is it just an upside-down mug? For me I would just get the upside-down mug.

I suspect I don't have this thing the article mentions where I associate the bottoms of things with badness, so I don't get this effect where the bad bottom suddenly becomes the good top if I flip it or myself over. There's just no effect except perhaps getting dizzy.

Levitz 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>The orientation relative to gravity is fundamental to the functioning of the mug.

Yes. Changing your system of reference fixes this too. Just get upside down glasses, gravity now goes "up" and the mug is upside down. Works perfectly. You can live like this if you want.