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rich_sasha 16 hours ago

I certainly sympathise, but actually don't find it at all surprising.

Tor is totally used for criminal activity. That doesn't mean it is inherently a bad thing, or that it is this guy's fault, but he can't completely wash his hands off it. If bad guys use the postal service, it's not the postman's fault, but he has to cooperate with law enforcement if they demand that.

I don't know about the US, but contempt of court is a thing in the UK at least. You can't refuse to submit evidence to court, including things like encryption keys or things only stored in your head - or face penalties including unlimited jail time.

Now, I get that this is the US so the arrest was dialled up to 11 and it seems all of this is extra-judicial - no court warrant etc. This is all very disappointing. But, to my non-expert eye running a Tor exit node is in the legal grey zone, and I guess you can't be too surprised when things like this happen.

mapontosevenths 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You can't refuse to submit evidence to court, including things like encryption keys or things only stored in your head - or face penalties including unlimited jail time.

This is a bit more complex in the US. We have the fifth amendment to our Constitution which says "nor shall [a person] be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself."

So, we can't be made to testify against ourselves. This has sometimes been interpreted to mean that they can't compel cryptography keys that are stored in our brains, and sometimes has been interpreted the other way.

I'm unaware of any definitive decision that applies universally. I've heard some suggest that passphrases that are themselves an admission of crime are a workaround that ensures you can't be compelled to provide them.

rich_sasha 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Why would breaking the privacy of Tor users be self-incriminating? If anything, surely it's the evidence of innocence - whatever unsavoury websites were visited via the Tor node were Tor users, not this guy.

Ray20 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> surely it's the evidence of innocence

The obligation to provide evidence of self- innocence is equivalent to the obligation to provide evidence of self- guilt. Doesn't one follow logically from the other?

rich_sasha 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Not really. Protecting by law ones right to withhold information that would incriminate them is one thing. But the incarcerated guy doesn't seem to claim there's anything incriminating him in these files. He simply stated he doesn't want to share it with the cops.

My understanding is, it's not like the FBI got a warrant for this etc, and instead started flinging shit at him - which is clearly bad. But for this narrow argument, that's besides the point, IMHO (IANAL). Because in the first place, the guy simply didn't want to share this information with law enforcement. There is no claim that it incriminates him.

How that stacks up against actual US case law, I have no idea of course, but I don't see how it follows from the right to not self-incriminate.

klibertp 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You can't refuse to submit evidence to court, including things like encryption keys or things only stored in your head

Out of curiosity, how does this work? If I claim I don't remember a particular password that I (provably) didn't enter for the past X months, how does the court force me to recall it? With an $8 wrench? Wouldn't that be cruel (if not unusual) punishment?

rich_sasha 13 hours ago | parent [-]

UK law runs on the "reasonable" adjective. The court would ask itself if it is "reasonable" in their own opinion that you don't have the info.

Typically it's applied to cases where the information is clearly available, like a drug dealer not remembering his daily driver laptop password, or refusing biometrics unlock. Not, we found this thumb drive within a mile of your house, decrypt it or else.

But of course the standard of "reasonableness" is murky, and you'll find plenty of cases that revolve on such contested judgment.

jrecyclebin 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Idk the punishment just doesn't match the crime. Can't they just confiscate the computer? Or pressure the ISP to cancel his account? Tbh I get that the Feds are going route around and through anything that stands in their way.

Instead we're left up to state thuggery.

ranger_danger 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Conveniently left out from the wife's story is the husband's corporate sabotage, FBI monitoring circumvention, CSAM searches and many parole violations.

3 years sounds about right to me.

NoImmatureAdHom 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the U.S. and much of the rest of the civilized world, you have rights. This includes the right to not self-incriminate (in the U.S. that's the 5th amendment). In general, except for very specific and limited circumstances, U.S. state and federal government actors cannot compel speech (telling your encryption keys is compelled speech).

The U.K. is fast sliding down the slope to being a dystopian police state. The idea that you can be jailed for refusing to provide encryption keys (except for really specific, narrowly-defined circumstances) is something that should induce nausea. I feel for you and your country, you accomplished such great things.

jansper39 16 hours ago | parent [-]

I just saw that president Trump is thinking about prescribing 'Antifa' as a terrorist organisation and saying that he's 'not sure' their 1st amendment rights should apply.

I'd be a little more concerned about the state of US at this point.

gampleman 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We've already done that in the UK with a certain pro-palestine organization.

NoImmatureAdHom 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Trump is just one man and he won't last much longer. Also, declaring "Antifa" a terrorist organization might make sense.

The U.K. is waaaaaaay further along in this direction. Wrongthink on a social media post? Jail.

They arrest 30 people a day for this: https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/15/britains-police...

( https://archive.is/vaCkJ )

NaomiLehman 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Declaring "Antifa" a terrorist organization makes as much sense as declaring "MAGA" a terrorist organization

NoImmatureAdHom 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't actually know what "Antifa" is, if it is in fact anything specific (rather than, e.g., a banner used by many and disparate groups--maybe that was your concern?).

What I did mean is that declaring certain organizations to be terrorist organizations (HAMAS, Al-Qaeda, etc.) seems to be well within the remit of the executive branch.

16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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