| ▲ | mcv 2 days ago |
| Yeah, I still don't understand why brown paper bags aren't more standard for everything. I do see some manufacturers reducing plastic, fortunately. For example, my box of tea bags used to come wrapped in plastic, and now it suddenly doesn't, and I'm wondering why it ever needed plastic. But there's still so much stuff that comes wrapped in plastic, and often multiple layers of it. Just ban it. There are excellent alternatives. |
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| ▲ | GuestFAUniverse 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Brown paper, from recycled fibers are often contaminated with mineral oil residue (e.g. from ink on paper) and other unhealthy chemicals, sadly. There was a report in Germany, years ago, of a range of organic products that failed during testing. They discovered the packaging (recycled paper) was the issue, not the crops and the supply chain before packaging. So, a _really_ biodegradable cellulose bag is desirable. Even if only to use it I side a brown bag (to stabilise it). |
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| ▲ | jajko 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Road to hell is paved with good intentions... I wonder how many here even notice the most important comment here from you and just keep repeating how plastic bags are worse. Yes they are terrible, but we shouldn't just blindly replace them with anything and call it a day but do the (continuous) investigation for best solution, poisons are these days everywhere. | | |
| ▲ | loopdoend 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Wouldn't the best solution be ensuring they all end up in an appropriate landfill rather than a river? It seems people are so against landfills that they're happy to sort their plastic and sent it on an epic journey of fraud where it ends up in a river in India. Meanwhile it could have been buried with their other trash and appropriately managed. | | |
| ▲ | JTbane a day ago | parent | next [-] | | IMO most plastics should be incinerated. This reduces the amount of waste that needs to be landfilled immensely and generates electricity as a bonus. | |
| ▲ | jraph a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > happy to sort their plastic and sent it on an epic journey of fraud where it ends up in a river in India It's not like they like this outcome or are even aware of it. We can't blame the individuals who want to do things properly here. The correct solution to "broken recycling chain" is not "let's not recycle", it's "let's fix the recycling chain". The issue with non-reusable / non-recyclable stuff is that we have a limited amount of it and is also environmentally expensive. Even recycling is not ideal. There's waste, and it costs energy. It's in the end not so sustainable. The best solution to me is reusable bags and containers (washable, and possibly refundable / returnable) whenever possible. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The issue with recycling, as-practiced, is that there's no lifecycle accounting (in many countries, including most of the US). If we boosted plastic price at point of sale by a recoverable amount, claimable when returning the container for recycling, we'd get higher participation. Separately, we should also apply the same to the post-return lifecycle: company pays a premium for the material flow, then it rebated that premium upon proof of recycling. | | | |
| ▲ | permo-w a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | if energy is a problem then surely we'd just build global recycling plants at geothermal hotspots? it's not like shipping is a problem. the sense I get is that the main bottleneck with recycling isn't energy, but labour. handling and sorting rubbish properly is tedious and unpleasant and the west doesn't want to spend the money that its workers would expect for it tangentially--and I'm aware this sounds incredibly stupid, and I'm sure it is--but on the topic of geothermal hotspots, what is the downside of finding some lava/magma source deep, deep underground and just dumping rubbish in there? surely most of the fumes would just be absorbed before they reach the surface? is it just too expensive of an idea/has it been done/is it likely to have undesirable long term side-effects/do we simply not have safe access to such things |
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| ▲ | potato3732842 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >It seems people are so against landfills that they're happy to sort their plastic and sent it on an epic journey of fraud where it ends up in a river in India See prior comment about road to hell being paved with good intentions. |
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| ▲ | DownGoat a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You have the same problem with plastic. Recycled plastic may not be food safe, and have contamination from whatever it was used for before recycling. | | |
| ▲ | nandomrumber a day ago | parent | next [-] | | New plastic doesn’t have that problem and is incredibly cheap. Take price as a proxy for resource / energy input and see that new plastic is also incredibly lite on inputs. New plastic may have some off-gassing / contact contamination concerns though. Last time I checked, energetically we’re better off using plastic over paper or recycled plastic, and burying the waste… if we could do that reliably, which we don’t seem to be able to. | | |
| ▲ | mapt a day ago | parent [-] | | There are several separate problems here. One is "People don't like bags stuck in the branches of trees and clogging waterways in their parks". Lightweight plastic shopping bags are so thin that a light breeze can pick them up and loft them up into the air easily. They cost approximately nothing - <2 cents retail, significantly less in bulk. It is incredibly expensive by comparison to pay someone to remove them from tree branches and riparian zones - tens of dollars in wages, equipment, and liability insurance. This is a pragmatic reason why municipalities passed bag taxes or bans. Forcing people to use paper or heavier-weight plastic bags that don't blow in the wind, even if they're not in practice "reusable", solves this one. Taxing them 5 cents or 10 cents or 25 cents per bag nudges a high percentage away. |
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| ▲ | lupusreal a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | About a year or so ago, somebody in the chain of suppliers of plastic PET bottles for seltzer water, used by several different brands, switched to a recycled plastic with a distinct dark tint to it. Immediately obvious because the product, water, is obviously clear. My family returned six cases of 15 bottles each to Costco, then found that the other brands at local stores were the same way. A couple of months later the bottles went back to normal. I still wonder if they switched back due to customer rejection of the new plastic, or if they found the new plastic was in some way leeching contaminants. |
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| ▲ | mcv 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don't have to make the bags our of recycled paper. You can make them out of new, unbleached paper. Still much better than plastic. | |
| ▲ | potato3732842 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >road to hell is paved with good intentions At some point there are so many bricks in the road, it's direction is so clear, that the intentions are not longer good. At best they are ignorant, but too often they are self serving malice sailing under the flag of ignorance. |
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| ▲ | foobar1962 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm old enough to remember when supermarkets only had brown paper bags. They were weak and the handles tear off easily, and anything cold will make the bag wet and it will fall apart usually from the bottom. Supermarkets must have spent a lot of money replacing customer's broken items when bags failed even before leaving the store. So when doing the calculus for brown paper bags don't forget to include the cost goods wasted when they fail. |
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| ▲ | potato3732842 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Thankfully we did the full stupid circle quickly enough that the gray hairs in the paper bag industry remembered this and the current generation of bags lacks the handles so people are forced to carry them from the bottom. | |
| ▲ | tremon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Those are not the brown paper bags the GP was referring to. Those fall under the earlier category of "forgot our reusable bags a couple of times and then got on with it". The ones that are left are to replace "small plastic bags you put fruit or pastries in". | |
| ▲ | nandomrumber a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Australian supermarkets have excelled at replicating this paper bag fiasco. The white plastic bags they replaced are magnitudes of order more durable and able to carry, I should test this, at a guess ten times the weight. Basically you can fill a white plastic bag with 1.25 litre water bottles to the extent no more can physically fit in the bag and it will be safe to carry and reuse 50 times. Fortunately the white plastic bags are still available online (eBay / Amazon / etc) so I just buy 50 for my own use as required and use them till they nearly fall apart then repurpose them as bin liners. They’re incredibly cheap, don’t really get dirty in an unhygienic way, can be washed if something does spill in them, and they fold up in to almost no space. | | |
| ▲ | throwawayffffas a day ago | parent [-] | | > Basically you can fill a white plastic bag with 1.25 litre water bottles to the extent no more can physically fit in the bag and it will be safe to carry and reuse 50 times. Yeah that's not good, the way they do that is with more plastic in the bags. A single bag weighs as much as 5-10 old timey single use bags. | | |
| ▲ | nandomrumber a day ago | parent [-] | | I’m talking about the old timey bags, they’re still available, just not at the checkout of supermarkets. |
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| ▲ | 0xffff2 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm old enough to remember when supermarket brown paper bags didn't have handles... Agree with the other commenter that the handles are pointless but the bags work fine if you just ignore them. Incidentally, given that I'm _not_ old enough to remember a time before supermarkets had plastic bags, either the invention of attaching handles to paper bags took a very long time to migrate to my corner of California, or this comment makes no sense | | |
| ▲ | mcv a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm old enough to remember when supermarkets had boxes. All the goods they sell comes to them in big cardboard boxes, and and supermarkets would have a fenced off area where they dumped all those boxes, so whenever a customer needed a box to put their groceries in to take them home, they'd get a box from that fenced off area. I haven't seen those in decades unfortunately. It was a great way to reuse those boxes. | | |
| ▲ | rincebrain a day ago | parent [-] | | I don't recall ever seeing one of those in the person-facing parts of the store, but I've not had issues either asking someone who works there in the store or going around the back of the store where they do loading and unloading and asking there. |
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| ▲ | lupusreal a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The handles on brown paper bags are noob traps. You're supposed to hold the bag against your body with one arm, your hand on the bottom of the bag. They work fine like this. I've walked home totaling hundreds if not thousands of miles (two or three times a week for many years) with paper grocery bags like this and never had issues. |
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| ▲ | alexchamberlain 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think banning plastic completely in packaging is a much harder ask, as whether it is needed is rather nuanced (if I understand it correctly). For example, it's perfectly possible to deliver cucumbers to an end customer without them being shrinkwrapped. However, to deliver enough cucumbers to enough customers for a supermarket scale, I understand from several documentaries that plastic is still required in that case. (For those outside the UK, plastic covered cucumber is the social barometer for plastic packaging.) Banning plastic bags was easy and simple, and our laws don't tend to deal with nuance very well... |
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| ▲ | mcv 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Interesting thing is, the non-organic cucumbers at my supermarket don't come in plastic, but the organic ones do. I never know which ones to get. | | |
| ▲ | jraph 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, this is terrible. Obviously the people who want to buy organic and the people who want to avoid plastic the most are probably almost the same group. They know this. It feels like "Fuck you environmental-aware buyers" to me. Of course wrapping everything non-organic is a no go as well, it would be terrible for the environment. And I'm afraid stopping the production of non-organic stuff ain't happening anytime soon. I believe the real solution if possible until they fix this is to go to a market or an organic store where nothing is in plastic, at least for fruits and vegetables. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Obviously the people who want to buy organic and the people who want to avoid plastic the most are probably almost the same group. They know this. It feels like "Fuck you environmental-aware buyers" to me. They're different types of environmental. One is "I don't like pesticides and I have money" and the other is "I don't like eternal plastic waste". | | |
| ▲ | jraph a day ago | parent [-] | | Different things, same group of people (money matters aside - people don't buy because it's more expensive, but despite it), no? The "I have money" part is obviously unfortunate. Buying healthy and environmentally-friendly shouldn't be conditioned by money. The next best individual thing is voting with one's own wallet in the meantime. The "I don't like pesticides"¹ and the "I don't like eternal plastic waste" are very compatible. Both pesticides and eternal plastic waste hurt the environment in their own ways. I suppose the target is the restricted set of people who are interested in organic products for their own individual health and who don't push the reasoning far enough to see that their health depends on the environment being healthy in the long term. Or, people who prefer buying organic food and who will make a compromise. Do you have a different reading? ¹ we will note that organic doesn't mean "no pesticides", and is broader than just pesticides, but I accept the shortcut. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar a day ago | parent [-] | | > (money matters aside - people don't buy because it's more expensive, but despite it), no? I didn't say people buy it because it's more expensive. | | |
| ▲ | jraph a day ago | parent [-] | | Indeed, but removing the money part of your sentence: > They're different types of environmental. One is "I don't like pesticides" and the other is "I don't like eternal plastic waste". Makes its clear that both concerns would come from the same group of people, more or less. Or not? This is my question to you. Just take my previous comment as "What do you mean, different?". You have a point with your money thing. Supermarkets absolutely make their choices with individualistic assumptions, taking in account classes of people and their revenues, and I suspect this is how we ended up with this wrapped organic vegetables heresy. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar a day ago | parent [-] | | > I suspect this is how we ended up with this wrapped organic vegetables heresy It could be that things treated without pesticides might require more protection against things attacking them in transit? Who knows. | | |
| ▲ | jraph a day ago | parent [-] | | It would be quite concerning :-) That would mean that we eat active pesticides when buying non organic food. Not that it would totally surprise me neither. We do know that organic markets don't need the plastic though. But they might have shorter circuits as well (which is also a good thing). | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar a day ago | parent [-] | | > That would mean that we eat active pesticides when buying non organic food. Not that it would totally surprise me neither. Not necessarily. It could be microbes downstream of pests touching your crops that shorten the shelf life, for example. > But they might have shorter circuits as well (which is also a good thing). It's a good thing if you have the time and money to buy things that are more expensive to produce. | | |
| ▲ | jraph a day ago | parent [-] | | > It's a good thing if you have the time and money to buy things that are more expensive to produce. Again with the money! We are looping here. I really don't know what you are trying to defend, but not the same thing as me for sure. I think I will stop there, we are not having a constructive discussion. You are just opposing random stuff without answering key points. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar a day ago | parent [-] | | > Again with the money! If you claim something is good, it's maybe okay to point out that it might not be good. |
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| ▲ | mcv 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, the issue is of course that the supermarket sells both kinds of cucumbers, and they need to be able to distinguish between organic and non-organic cucumbers, which is why they wrap one type in plastic. And of course it's better for the environment if that's the type they sell the least of. So every step makes sense, but the end result looks ridiculous. Maybe they can use paper wrappers instead? Or maybe just settle on one type of cucumber. |
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| ▲ | vanviegen 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The way I understand it, without the wrapping a much larger percentage of cucumbers need to be thrown away before ever being sold, due to spoilage. That's not a win for the environment. | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > That's not a win for the environment. How is this calculated? I know that growing a cucumber has an environmental cost but so does producing plastic, delivering it and then using machines to shrink-wrap every cucumber. | | |
| ▲ | vanviegen 2 days ago | parent [-] | | This study, for instance, [1] looks at CO2 emissions. Which may be a somewhat limited view, but the effect is rather large: adding 5 wrappers around a cucumber (4 of which being useless) would result in about the same CO2 usage as adding no wrapper. And that's not even considering spoilage after the cucumber has been bought by a consumer. [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/sustainable-food-system... | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler a day ago | parent [-] | | CO2 usage, I get you, but what about the plastic waste? | | |
| ▲ | alexchamberlain a day ago | parent [-] | | This is the problem though, right? It’s not one league table of environmental goodness - there are tradeoffs that as an educated consumer are impose to navigate. | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, I understand, that's why I questioned the unqualified claim "that's not a win for the environment" as if it's so clear cut. |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Brown paper bags were the standard grocery store bag up until sometime in the 1980s. The transition to plastic was pushed by environmentalists with a "save the trees" message focused on how many trees were used to make the paper bags. |
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| ▲ | hliyan a day ago | parent [-] | | Can you back that last claim up? The push was from plastic manufacturers. https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/birth-ban-histor... | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker a day ago | parent [-] | | Not really. It's just my memory of the times. "Save the trees" was a very big thing for a while, in arguments for avoiding paper and cardboard packaging. | | |
| ▲ | nickserv a day ago | parent [-] | | A lot of so-called environnemental awareness campaigns are the work of trade organizations or multinationals. Often they shift the blame onto the consumer, so for example it's "you need to recycle" instead of "we need to produce less". |
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| ▲ | rincebrain a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They break in a lot of use cases. What you see in a lot of places that have people heavily relying on things like delivery services, is people using the reusable bags like they would use single-use bags - so now you have spent even more resources on a bag that's still being used as single-use. Oops. |
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| ▲ | the__alchemist a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I agree getting rid of plastic bags is a net win for the reasons discussed. But I can't take the brown paper bag thing seriously! They are a UX nightmare in my workflows. Carry one bag per trip in multiple trips (Instead of ~4 I can do with reusable or plastic). Or try the handled ones which tear off end up with groceries all over. Reusable bags are nice though. |
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| ▲ | AlecSchueler 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Yeah, I still don't understand why brown paper bags aren't more standard for everything Because plastic is cheaper. As I understand it it's often got a negative cost to it, the companies are paid to take it and use it. |
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| ▲ | mcv 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Negative cost? Why? It still needs to be produced and transported, right? I don't understand the business case behind this. | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The way it was explained to me isv that there are so many plastic feedstocks produced by fuel production that it's often most efficient to pay someone just to take it away. | | |
| ▲ | potato3732842 a day ago | parent [-] | | That's basically the economic equivalent of having to pay to get rid of a fallen tree despite that tree then going on to be chipped and sold in bulk to whatever the nearest local place buying chips is. The feed stock is basically worth nothing, it's the labor and energy investment that you add to it at every step that adds the value. |
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| ▲ | jon_adler 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Unfortunately, all the actual tea bags are usually plastic. The wrapping is probably a small percentage of the plastic in this product. |
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| ▲ | mcv 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm pretty sure my tea bags are paper, and have always been paper. It's the more recent "pyramid" shaped tea bags that I think are made of plastic. The most recent change to my tea bags was to remove the staple so they could go in organic waste. | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You'd be surprised how paper-like the plastic bags appear to be. | | |
| ▲ | ahartmetz 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Could try burning a tiny piece and check how it behaves and smells. | |
| ▲ | mcv 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I doubt the advice would be to throw them in the organic waste if it was plastic. | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Some plastics can go in the organic waste bins, such as the organic waste bin bags. | | |
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| ▲ | WithinReason 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Teapigs pyramids are made of cornstarch | |
| ▲ | pfdietz a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why can't staples go in organic waste? They go into my compost pile and will rust. Iron is like 5% of average crustal rocks and is abundant in soils. |
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| ▲ | gmac 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is also an issue for microplastics ingestion. In the UK, teabags are increasingly made of PLA. | | |
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