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adastra22 2 days ago

You may have ADHD. I’ve never described myself as dim-witted, because I’ve never viewed it so negatively, but your description fits me exactly. Even down to the spatial awareness thing and biographical details like switching from math to theoretical physics in college.

I eventually got diagnosed as an adult with ADHD, and got treatment. Stimulants help me be significantly more “quick-witted” to use your terms. I would rather describe “being slow” as being in a constant state of distraction, which prevents me from being efficient with the task at hand. Stimulants fix this.

However having grown up scatterbrained, some aspects of it are now architectural in my brain and aren’t changed by slightly modifying the brain chemistry. I now see that as a superpower through, as it gives me a different perspective for seeing problems, and is great for strategic thinking. Stimulants just give me focused control over it and the ability to turn it off and on as the need arises.

godelski 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think I wouldn't be so quick to conclude ADHD or suggest stimulants. I have ADHD too, and I know exactly what you're talking about. Those alarms in your head going off. Where everything is an emergency so nothing is. I'm not so sure it is being "scatterbrained" as much as it is over-parallelism.

But the OP's points have more complexity than they think (in my main comment[0] I mention depth being missing). Let's take the quick math one for example. They made the assumption that a calculation was being made. This seems reasonable, but if you're doing a lot of those calculations you'll memorize them. I interestingly have experimental data on this. After my undergrad I had to get an EKG done and the tech asked me to do some basic math questions to get some readings. Problem is, I could answer her questions but she got almost no signal. They were just too easy for me because I was so familiar with them. You don't need to calculate what's in the cache. So we moved to 2 digit multiplications and signal was mixed. Good correlation with being able to leverage previous calculations. So then I had her and my dad pick 3 random numbers and I would multiply those in my head. That did the trick and she said it light up like a Christmas tree (I do this visually, so it really was using more parts of the brain than she was likely used to seeing).

My point is, there's more nuance to this. Your brain isn't just a computation unit, it has various levels of storage with different speeds and capacities, it has different accelerators and processing units that can be leveraged if programmed in the right way. The problem with the OP's assessment is they've measured output speed and assumed this is enough information to calculate FLOPS, but a slower processor can win that race if it just is pulling from cache. A slower processor can win in aggregate if it has more parallelism. The problem is that they're measuring something different than what they think they're measuring, even if it is right up to a first order approximation.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45242293

throwuxiytayq 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

“May have” doesn’t indicate conclusion - you’re the one being quick. That said, the article really does seem to describe the symptoms of inattentive ADHD with a breadth of cues and close precision.

As to the rest of your comment, not to diminish your experience, it’s really difficult to tell what you’re trying to say, and how that has to do with any of the very specific symptoms and experiences mentioned.

seanssel a day ago | parent | next [-]

This is my first time hearing about inattentive ADHD, but it seems to describe me pretty well. Do you have experience looking into this as an adult? I feel like there’s such a stigma around ADHD diagnoses and people seeking stimulants.

istjohn a day ago | parent | next [-]

Not OP, but I was diagnosed as an adult. There are brief screening questionaires therapists or general medicine doctors can use as a quick first step. But when I was given one of these tests, I scored a couple points under the threshhold. Later, when a thorough, proper battery of tests was administered by a psychiatrist at a major university medical center, I was found to have significant ADHD impairment. So if you think you may have ADHD, it's worth seeking out a proper evaluation from a psychiatrist. The battery of tests will take multiple hours.

I haven't had a lot of issues getting treatment after my diagnosis, personally. I know some people do have issues, and there are inconveniences like annual drug tests I have to take, but my only regret is not getting diagnosed ten years earlier.

seanssel a day ago | parent [-]

Hey, thanks for the response. I'm in my mid 30s and have considered myself a "space cadet" my entire life. School was absolutely brutal for me, and I'm still amazed at myself for getting through it. Assumed that most of inability to focus was because of mild depression and anxiety, but I'd like to see if something else is going on. Feels like I've been living in a daze for decades.

Guess I'll reach out to a GP first and see what they think. Appreciate you.

throwuxiytayq 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not much to add vs the other comment. Look into ADHD symptoms - inattentive traits that you relate to are all part of that. Upon reflection you might relate to some other symptoms as well. You might want to read about how all of diagnostic criteria are defined in the DSM-5, which is likely similar to what your psychiatrist will rely for diagnosis.

Disregard the stigma, it is mostly confined to people fully ignorant as to what ADHD is, how stimulant medication works, and its well proven safety profile.

godelski 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

  > “May have” doesn’t indicate conclusion
Correct. We are placing different likelihood values. Adastra gave reasons they'd consider an ADHD diagnosis. I game reasons to consider other interpretations. I didn't assume Adastra made a definitive 100% conclusion that OP has ADHD. Not only because I understand qualifying words but because making immutable conclusions is typically dumb and I don't think Adastra is dumb.

  > it’s really difficult to tell what you’re trying to say, and how that has to do with any of the very specific symptoms and experiences mentioned.
Look back to my comment and skip to the "My point is" paragraph. If you haven't read the article, I would do that first, because I am picking a specific example from the article. In fact, the main example. They talk quite a bit about doing calculations quickly, including our 3 digit by 3 digit multiplication. Speed isn't enough because you can't distinguish between someone's raw calculation capabilities from use of a different algorithm. In my story I heavily implied I was using a different algorithm to do my calculations, and you bet I was leveraging the reuse of subcalculations.

My comment is saying "I think it is more likely that OP is comparing apples to oranges. They assume they're interchangeable because they're both roundish fruits, but if you're interested in health benefits then you need to consider additional aspects." It's just longer because I'm specifying aspects and providing an example.

kashunstva 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> I had to get an EKG done…

Must have actually been an EEG by the description, right?

godelski 2 days ago | parent [-]

Thanks, I looked to confirm and I'm pretty sure you're right. It was over a decade ago and well... I'm not that kind of doctor lol

tptacek 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Given the whole point of the article is that this person's thinking style isn't dysfunctional, in fact seems to be working out just fine for them, why wouldn't we just look at this and say "this is a normal way for a human being to operate" and refuse to pathologize it? Why drug your way to a different thinking style?

brohoolio 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Everyone is on their own journey and there are so many reasons a person might think a particular way.

The comment you are responding to is just trying to explain their own situation and say the person who wrote the article might want to investigate a similar experience compared to their own. I read the article as one where someone is exploring and ADHD is would be exploration. I would specify that ADHD inattentive type is the one that it reads most like to me.

I don't see why you'd want to knock someone's choice of treatment for a particular condition. You might not see a need for a particular treatment option, but many folks get relief from anxiety or other things such as RSD while being medicated for ADHD. They can make their own decisions.

KronisLV a day ago | parent [-]

> The comment you are responding to is just trying to explain their own situation and say the person who wrote the article might want to investigate a similar experience compared to their own.

I appreciate their perspective. I might want to get checked for ADHD at some point as well, if doing that might improve my quality of life down the road then great, if it turns up nothing, then I'd still be glad to have looked into it.

adastra22 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because inattentive ADD has done real damage to my life, both personally and professionally. It very nearly destroyed my marriage.

I politely suggest that you check your anti-medication bias at the door. OP is describing a lifetime of feeling s/he is a failure and unable to achieve the goals he would otherwise set for themselves. This is classic ADD symptoms, and the only real therapy with lasting results is medication.

For ADD people such as myself, medication is life-altering in a positive way. I clearly divide my life before and after as different eras: before was a lifetime of failure measured against my own goals (not only external / work requirements), and after a still-ongoing period of self-empowerment and growth.

Yet people such as yourself would attempt to guilt trip and shame us from seeking the only thing which actually helps: modifying our brain chemistry. Why? What reason do you have for shutting down discussion of taking medicine to address a medical condition?

boredemployee 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I did struggle my whole life with "attention". Like my attention span in meetings is awful. I record everything so I can listen to later. it's time to look for a doctor.

Question: does stimulants interfere in other areas of life in a bad way (like sexual life etc)?

adastra22 2 days ago | parent [-]

Depends on the drug and dosage. AFAIK stimulants generally don't have severe or long-lasting impact on those areas.

Both Ritalin and Adderall (as well as variants like Vyvanse) are vasoconstrictors and therefore affect blood flow. This leads to some mild discomfort. "Adderall dick" is a temporary condition comparable to "pool shrinkage"; it doesn't affect everyone, depends on the dose, and neither impacts performance--it still responds to sexual stimulation.

Stimulant usage can mildly increase blood pressure, which over the very long term (years, decades) can lead to ED and other more serious issues. However that is part of why these medications require close supervision by the prescribing doctor, who will add other medications like lisinopril to counteract those effects, if observed.

In rare but reported cases it can lead to some weird effects, like dissociating orgasms from physical climax -- you can find lots of self-reports on Reddit about these sorts of things. None of these are permanent and go away when the drug leaves your system.

In the vast majority of patients, none of the above happens, and I'm not aware of a single thing that is permanent (other than the effects of high blood pressure over time if you let that go unwatched). This is unlike, for example, SSRIs which have have permanent effects on sexual well-being. I bring this up because some doctors prescribe SSRIs as a first-line, so they don't have to prescribe controlled substances. Don't let them do this to you -- antidepressants can have some insanely bad (and in some cases, permanent) side effects, drastically alter your personality, and are not considered the standard of care for ADHD.

boredemployee 2 days ago | parent [-]

Thank you for the detailed reply! Really appreciate it.

I take SSRI since 2019 because of generalized anxiety disorder, but I'm much better now, my life changed a lot (for the better) and want to stop to take it or change for something else, because I'm already in a low dose but delayed ejaculation is something that I hate, I never had problems with it and the drug takes it to another level.

So I'll check what is a safe combination to perhaps threat both. My attention span really annoys me.

ChatGPT told me about vortioxetine for attention disorder and anxiety, which I'll discuss with the doc.

Thanks again!

tptacek 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Hold on, I'm not saying you should do anything differently than you and your doctor worked out. I have no idea what your situation. I'm reacting to a comment that looked at someone who feels their situation is going just fine and responded by suggesting medication.

adastra22 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I didn't read OP as "feel[ing] their situation is going just fine." That was certainly the tone he was projecting, but the actual content he discussed was a lot of coping strategies for what he sees as his own mental handicap. The purpose of my comment was just to point out, in case he wasn't aware, that it may in fact be a condition that can be medically treated.

To make an absurd comparison, it's as if he wrote a whole blog post about his sailing hobby and how he deals with scurvy on long trips. Maybe there's a lot of innovative tricks he throws in there, along with lowering of expectations -- scheduling the rough legs of the journey to be right after leaving port, before the symptoms set in. The intention of my post was: "have you tried taking vitamin C?"

Stimulants have this effect on ADD people. We don't feel the euphoric highs other people report, nor does it have much in the way of negative side effects. It's a pill I take once a day which gives me control over my life and my well-being. We celebrate neural-diversity and rightly so, but after living many decades of my life as a neuro-atypical person, it is wondrous to be able to just take a pill and be 'normal' for a day, where normal here just means "able to do what I want, when I want to; be aware and present in the moment; and live without regrets."

Sorry for snapping at you earlier, but those of us that choose medication end up having to deal with a lot of this societal judgement crap. Judged by the doctors and pharmacists who treat us as criminals, judged by schools and teachers who think stimulants are overprescribed, and judged by generally everyone when the topic comes up. There's a stigma here and it is a serious issue, so I push back on it when I see it.

istjohn 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Why drug your way to a different thinking style?

Would you talk this way about statins, PrEP, or ACE inhibitors?

freetinker 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is an astute point. I’m a mid-40s mech engineer in the Bay Area. HN is my tribe, by and large. I’ve been bombarded with perspectives that ADHD medication is the answer. (Not officially diagnosed, but I’m confident I meet the criteria and very likely “afflicted.”)

The brain is complex—adapted, or maladapted, for different tasks. My working hypothesis: mine is maladapted to the behaviors currently rewarded in corporate America. And I know I’m not Feynman.

So here I am, stuck in a bi-modal world (or maybe just worldview). This piece hits hard.

istjohn a day ago | parent | next [-]

I mean, medication is the frontline treatment for ADHD. Research has shown it to be the most effective treatment and to be safe with typically mild side-effects. This is the professional opinion of the medical experts who study this disorder. If anything, it's the oft-expressed skepticism towards ADHD medication that is noteworthy and odd.

e4325f 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Have Americans learnt nothing from the opioid crisis?

Quekid5 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> why wouldn't we just look at this and say "this is a normal way for a human being to operate" and refuse to pathologize it

I don't think it's so much about that... it's more that having a label for a common set of behaviors/symptoms can be a shorthand to explain things more succinctly.

Btw, would you say the same thing about clinical depression? Why/why not?

> Why drug your way to a different thinking style?

Because ADHD (and other things) can be crippling when it comes to actually getting IRL shit that needs doing... done. "We live in a society" is a meme, but there's actually a lot of stuff that can present non-trivial hurdles for neuro-divergent people IRL ... like filing taxes, going to an unemployment office, etc. etc.

(Also, that's not quite what the drugs do if you have ADHD, but I digress)

nxobject 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t think that’s what the parent is describing it at all, not at the end. It’s a framework for understanding OP’s style of thinking, and connecting it to the research literature - sluggish “cognitive tempo” is the clinical jargon.

firstplacelast 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well that's sort of the fun things about psychiatric "disorders", in many of them you can genuinely ask is this difference with the brain actually harmful unto itself or is it harmful because of the way society is set up?

I have struggled with this myself with ADHD where I think my brain is great and it is society that is wrong as many of the ways I do things/see things/operate are subtly shunned by society and the way it works. Everything from the typical 9-5 (my brain works best 11-7), to most white collar careers revolving around stationary work at a desk (I love difficult mental work, but think better when I'm moving around), etc.

I don't think my brain is wrong or performing poorly, I excelled at school but did not learn much from lecture style formats (figured out how to study on my own). But I have gone back and forth with medication because it is very, very difficult to construct my life in a way that plays to my strengths when they are so different than the norm. Medication helps my brain fit into society better, but I don't think it improves my brain function.

idiotsecant 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Parent post clearly explained the advantages and disadvantages of stimulant use and how they are useful in different situations. Nobody is saying it's dysfunctional. This isn't reddit, you don't need to always be searching for something to be outraged about.

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
istjohn 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Wow, this got long.

TL;DR: The author, by their own words, is simply coping. ADHD is a disorder, not a "different way of thinking" one chooses to "drug your way" out of. Discovering one has ADHD can be a huge relief. Generally, if you have it, you want to know.

---

I disagree with your reading. The article describes the mechanisms the author has developed to cope with their "thinking style." Whether they merely have a unique thought process, or they are suffering from a common mental disability, their optimistic, solution-oriented attitude is adaptive and healthy.

> I'm not a quick witted person. In fact, I’ve always been worried about my brain’s slow processing time.

> But recently, I've realised that slow processing time is not as much of an issue as I thought it was. And even if I was wrong about that, I still think I’d do better for myself by leaning into it, instead of spending energy trying to fight it.

The author has "always" been worried about this. But he's realized it's "not as much of an issue." It reads to me like the author is working to cope with a long-standing difficulty. And they do not say that they have overcome the difficulty, but only that they've found certain approaches to be superior to others.

If the root cause of this long-standing, much-vexing difficulty might be a well-understood condition with standard methods of treatment that have been helpful to many people, it's reasonable to think the author might appreciate that suggestion.

Also, ADHD is not a "different thinking style" anymore than anxiety, depression, or autism are "different thinking styles." It can feel like that to someone who hasn't been diagnosed yet, and even many people diagnosed with ADHD will downplay the condition as being different--not worse. Furthermore, there are even doctors who will indulge in this wishful rhetoric. This is not unlike those in the Deaf community who assert that deafness isn't a disability[1].

In fact, ADHD is a mental disorder. It does not give one special powers of creativity or insight or anything else in compensation for the lack of executive function and emotional regulation. As Dr. Russel Barkley says[2]:

> Now let's be clear, this is a very serious disorder. This is not some trivial little fly-by-night disorder.

> Also, to emphasize something which I don't think is emphasized enough: ADHD is no gift. There is no evidence in any research on any of hundreds of measures that we have taken that show that ADHD predisposes to anything positive in human life. Now let's be clear, ADHD is but a small set of hundreds of psychological abilities that people will have, and many people may be gifted and talented in various aspects of these other human abilities, but never attribute that giftedness or that success to ADHD itself.

I know you hold no malice in your heart, but your comment has drawn several indignant responses because it expresses an attitude that those with ADHD frequently see, and one that easily shades into an outright stigma towards people with ADHD.

I'm not saying that you were saying this, but many people seem to think that people with ADHD are pathologizing normal difficulties and using it to get their hands on fun drugs.

> You get bored at work. Sure, everyone gets bored.

> You have a hard time starting big projects. I can relate.

> You lose track of time sometimes. Me too!

> You know, it kind of seems like you have all the normal struggles in life we all do, but instead of bucking up and just getting stuff done, you've decided to cry to a doctor so you can get cheap addies.

There is nothing admirable about refusing to acknowledge a mental disorder. ADHD is more or less severe in different people, and it's perfectly valid to make an informed choice to forego any treatment for any condition. But it isn't doing the author or anyone else any favors to "refuse to pathologize it" by ignoring the resemblance to a common disorder.

The other part of the puzzle you are missing is that getting diagnosed with ADHD was a hugely positive, life-changing event for many of us who were not diagnosed until adulthood.

To live with undiagnosed ADHD is to live with a condition that makes others see you--and you see yourself--as chronically late and unreliable, unfocused and slow, and disorganized. You are, by all appearances, lazy, irresponsible, and careless: a bad, virtueless person. And over and over again, you fail to reach the eminently achievable goals you set for yourself.

It's an immense relief to discover your life-long shortcomings are not those of a morally defective soul, but of a medically defective brain. And this relief is entirely apart from the hope that medication or another treatment might help.

So perhaps you can now understand why those who have experienced this unburdening are eager to pay it forward. It's not like being diagnosed with cancer. We've always known the struggle. Now we know the enemy with whom we struggle.

1. https://www.reddit.com/r/deaf/comments/134tw70/do_you_identi...

2. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9w6YL5__Z8

Edit: Added a TL;DR, removed an unnecessary quote, and made a couple slight wording changes.

adastra22 2 days ago | parent [-]

Thank you for this long and insightful post. You put into words the frustration that I felt at Patrick's comment (which I apologized for elsewhere), and communicated it far better.

istjohn a day ago | parent [-]

Heh, I'm glad someone read the thing. After reading your later replies to Patrick, I felt my comments were essentially redundant, so it's nice to hear you appreciate them. I doubt Patrick will scale my wall of text, and I don't blame him, but that's what you get when you rile up a hyperfocusing ADHDer.

glitchc 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Someone with many parallel trains of thought is not necessarily inflicted with ADHD. It's natural for some human brains to race a mile a minute while others to plod along slowly and methodically. I've known very smart people on both sides of the spectrum and it's a pretty wide spectrum.

Jensson a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You may have ADHD

Don't think this is related to ADHD, I have very serious ADHD but I have no issue keeping up in conversations I am interested in.

ADHD is about where you can put your energy / attention, not if you are fast or slow when you focus on something. If you are very fast when you are interested then you aren't a slow thinker, if you struggle keeping up when you aren't interested due to lack of focus then the issue isn't being a slow thinker its the lack of focus.

peepee1982 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

My experience as well. I was able to mask my ADHD with my high IQ, but I always felt like everyone else got a memo that I had missed, even when I was able to perform at a high level for short amounts of time.

Been diagnosed last year at age 42 and started taking medication. I think both quicker and faster because I don't get side-tracked and lost constantly. I can participate and even lead complicated discussions now when previously I would drift off because of something someone said that reminded me of something that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

If someone feels mentally sluggish it's worth looking into getting checked out.