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Rygian 3 days ago

You may be referring to Catalan language. I'm not aware of any "Catalan variant" of Spanish.

tomhow 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234383 and marked it off topic.

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

schoen 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While Catalan speakers would be very unlikely to say "Catalan Spanish", there is a conception that there are many "lenguas españolas" (Spanish languages, as in languages that are part of the country of Spain). In this formulation even Basque is a "Spanish language" (as a language of Spain), even though it isn't linguistically related to Castilian Spanish.

Notably, the constitution of Spain uses this phrasing in its article 3:

1. El castellano es la lengua española oficial del Estado. Todos los españoles tienen el deber de conocerla y el derecho a usarla.

2. Las demás lenguas españolas serán también oficiales en las respectivas Comunidades Autónomas de acuerdo con sus Estatutos.

3. La riqueza de las distintas modalidades lingüísticas de España es un patrimonio cultural que será objeto de especial respeto y protección.

In English:

1. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the state. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it.

2. The other Spanish languages are also official in their respective Autonomous Communities, in accordance with their Statutes.

3. The richness of the different linguistic modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be accorded particular respect and protection.

I've heard a minority of (seemingly highly educated) people prefer to say "Castellano" instead of "Español", maybe as a deliberate reference to this concept.

normie3000 3 days ago | parent [-]

> I've heard a minority of (seemingly highly educated) people prefer to say "Castellano" instead of "Español"

I would expect castellano in Spain, and español in the Americas. Does this align with your experience?

jvican 3 days ago | parent [-]

Not always. People from the center and west side of Spain typically refer to it as "español" rather than "castellano". Nonetheless, it's true educated people typically refer to it as "castellano" as well as other Spaniards that live in a region where other official languages are spoken.

schoen 2 days ago | parent [-]

And some of the people I was thinking of who said "castellano" were from Latin America (though this is clearly a minority usage there; maybe some of those people even had Catalan-speaking friends or colleagues or something).

dddgghhbbfblk 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While "Catalan Spanish" is certainly a nonstandard term, when contrasted against "Castilian Spanish" it does make some sense: it's the Romance variant that developed in the Catalonia part of Spain, vs the one that developed in Castile.

Rygian 3 days ago | parent [-]

I see the point. But it hangs on a thin string. One more stretch and you'd get "west-side Spanish" for Portuguese, or some sort of "gaelic Spanish" for Occitan.

ted_dunning 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Darn! You're right.

The step after is to start talking about Provencal as if it were a dialect or French. Or Sicilian or Napolitano as a dialect of Italian.

What will the world come to!

3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
normie3000 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Isn't Occitan "French Catalan Spanish"?

pvaldes 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Obviously Catalonia is a part of Spain, they are Spanish, while Portugal and France are different countries.

rkomorn 3 days ago | parent [-]

FWIW, I think some Catalans have a very different opinion.

jvican 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Regardless of how they might feel, they're still Spanish (hold a Spanish passport), so it's a true fact. I also take issue with you claiming that all Catalans feel this way, that's largely untrue.

That being said, both terms "Castilian Spanish" and "Catalan Spanish" sound weird to me. Source: I'm both a Catalan and Spanish speaker. In my languages, they're both referred as "Castellano" o "Catalan".

I'd appreciate that people referred to these languages either as Catalan or Spanish, no need for unnecessary qualifiers. (Spanish is, unlike English, a completely centralized language. No need to make geographical distinctions.)

rkomorn 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> I also take issue with you claiming that all Catalans feel this way, that's largely untrue.

There are literally 10 words in my comment and you couldn't even read all of them?

jvican 3 days ago | parent [-]

Sorry for misreading, didn't notice the 'some'.

rkomorn 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Spanish is, unlike English, a completely centralized language. No need to make geographical distinctions.

So you'd say there are no distinctions worth noting between the Spanish spoken in any Spanish-speaking Latin American country and the Spanish spoken in Spain?

jvican 3 days ago | parent [-]

Most of the times, for most of the speakers, there is no need to make a distinction.

Why would any one feel it's important to say they went to Sydney and spoke to the peoples of Australia in Australian English?

rkomorn 3 days ago | parent [-]

I'd say that, for example, there are significant enough pronunciation (and in a few cases, vocabulary) differences between Portuguese in Portugal vs Brazil.

From experience, learning one is not the same as the other.

So there are definitely contexts where these differences matter.

jvican 2 days ago | parent [-]

There are contexts where the differences matter, but not in the vast majority of contexts (especially the OP's context).

normie3000 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> they're still Spanish

Isn't Catalan the official language of Andorra?

"Catalan Spanish" makes as much sense as "Basque Spanish". It sounds like an English translation of "catañol".

jvican 3 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, but when people refer to "Catalan people", they refer to people from Catalunya, Spain, not Andorra.

pvaldes 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Then, they can declare an independence war, and win that war. They can't have their cake and eat it.

Something that not even the most stubborn separatists want to do, while enjoying the special treatment of "I feel oppressed under the weight of all this Spanish fiscal benefits that other Spaniards don't have".

Until that war happens, saying I'm not Spanish, I'm from Catalonia, is like an American native from Oklahoma saying "I don't feel like an USA citizen, so I will not pay taxes but I will keep all the benefits, freedom of movement, etc that they have". Yes you are and US citizen. Feelings are irrelevant from a legal point of view. Stop acting like a child. After 20 years repeating the same dumb lie, is frankly annoying for the rest of us.

bdunks 3 days ago | parent [-]

“A language is a dialect with an army and navy”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with...

russellbeattie 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I learned Spanish in Madrid - there's definitely no Catalan dialect of Spanish - it's either/or. And the northeastern Spanish accent is perfectly understandable (unlike, say, Galicia or Andalusia).

So it's surprising that OP thought Catalan was a version of Spanish, because it's completely unintelligible to anyone who learned Spanish as a second language (like myself) - not sure about native speakers. I can't even pronounce the street names in Barcelona when I visit.

normie3000 3 days ago | parent [-]

> it's completely unintelligible to anyone who learned Spanish

This is wild. The languages share a lot of vocabulary and grammar.

> I can't even pronounce the street names in Barcelona when I visit.

This is also wild. I can see there are some words like "passeig" and "plaça" which aren't immediately familiar, but they're not far from the Spanish equivalents. And you could have a good shot at pronouncing many other streets like "Gran Via" and "Diagonal".

russellbeattie 3 days ago | parent [-]

You can take a wild guess at the street names if you're reading them out loud, of course.

But what do you do when someone tells you an address on a street like Passatge di'Alió ("pasa je dia lio??"). You're not remembering that on the first try, you won't write it down correctly and later when you try to tell the taxista where to go they'll look at you like you're crazy. (This is from personal experience.)

3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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gerdesj 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Scottish bloke rocks up to the wrong wedding, simple mistake.

Top thread on HN riffs on Catalan independence. To be fair, Scotland and Catalonia both cite each other as exemplars.

For me, I'm fighting for Wessex's independence from England and hence Britain oh and the UK. Eventually I'll fight for Somerset, then Yeovil and finally Brunswick Street. Not sure how it will all work.

Nominative tribalism can be a force for good or bad but rarely makes a useful contribution to an article about a daft mistake that has a heart warming finale.

867-5309 3 days ago | parent [-]

tbf, Catalonia and Caledonia are homophones when uttered by an American dyslexic

gerdesj 2 days ago | parent [-]

rofl! Love it!