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segmondy 5 days ago

I was told to use ANY language in an interview. I asked them if they were sure, so I solved it with J. They were not too pleased and asked me if I could use another language, so I did prolog and we moved on to the next question. Then the idiot had the audacity to say I should not use "J and Prolog" but any common known language. I asked if assembly was fine, and they said no. Perhaps python or javascript. I did the rest in python, needless to say I didn't get the job. :-)

saghm 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Reminds me of https://aphyr.com/posts/340-reversing-the-technical-intervie... (and the follow-ups to it)

ec109685 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

We had a programming language class at college and wrote the same program in everything from Java to Lisp. The lisp was way nicer.

3 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
felixyz 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're a hero!

usgroup 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

:-) I would have hired you!

nerpderp82 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You fired them.

echelon 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's not a job you want.

nice_byte 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

yepitwas 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

If the candidate asks if you're sure you want them to use any language and you say "yes", and then get pissy when they do, the candidate isn't the one who sabotaged anything and they're dodging a bullet if they "fail".

tavavex 4 days ago | parent [-]

I feel like I'm entering a whole different universe on HN. Maybe things are this equal and fair on the senior, high-paying part of the spectrum that most people here seem to occupy, but in general there's a huge power imbalance in job interviews. Unless you're special and the company wants you in particular, it costs them nothing to turn you down in favor of the other 10000 perfect applicants, while you must find a job to survive.

As someone just starting out, the general feeling among my peers is that I must bend to the interviewer's whims, any resistance or pushback will get you rejected. If this is dodging a bullet, then the entire junior field is a WW1 trench, at least where I am. Why would a company hire someone who gets 9/10 on the behavioral portion when they have a dozen other 10/10 candidates? Of course when the interviewer asks me to use "any language", I'll assume they want Python or Java or C++ or Rust, not Bash or ALGOL 68. Stepping out of line would just be performatively asking them to reject me.

yepitwas 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I agree that doing that without asking if they really mean "any" would in fact demonstrate traits that might be bad for a co-worker.

If the candidate reads that this may be the case, asks for, obviously, that reason, and the interviewer confirms that they mean "any", then it's a red flag for that interviewer, at least, as a co-worker, if they go on to get upset over your choice, unless it's something where you're obviously taking the piss, like Brainfuck (the later suggestion of assembly probably counts as this, but at that point the interviewer[s] had already failed the interviewee's test of them, so, whatever)

But yes, if you're desperate for a job you should indeed just ignore any red flags and do your best to fit the perfect-cog mold and do whatever emotional labor is required to seem the way you think they want you to be, and take whatever abuse they offer with a smile. That's true.

tavavex 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, I don't mean to justify the actions of the interviewer, they were likely in the wrong here. It's just that, to someone in my position, it seems almost funny to be willing to throw the entire interview over something like that. It's them who gets to decide your fate.

Also, we can't know what exactly was said, so maybe miscommunication could be partly to blame. Like, "Are you sure I can use any language? (Are you really so gracious as to give me this option?)" vs. "Are you sure I can use any language? (Can I use something you definitely don't know?)"

joenot443 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> If the candidate reads that this may be the case, asks for, obviously, that reason, and the interviewer confirms that they mean "any", then it's a red flag for that interviewer

I think the confusing part to me is why a rational candidate would assume it'd be a good signal to use an esoteric language to solve a problem in the first place. Like my understanding is that J would be a pretty inappropriate choice if you were trying to demonstrate your D/S knowledge, which is typically what that part of the interview is meant to be for. Apart from the round of applause on HN they'd receive later for being so very clever, what's the actual benefit for the candidate for using Prolog or J?

tmtvl 4 days ago | parent [-]

If J is the right tool to use to handle a problem with, Prolog is an alright tool for that purpose, and Python is kind of a bad fit; why would you use Python instead of J or Prolog?

If I need to drive a screw I'll first grab a screwdriver. If that's not okay I suppose I could use a knife. A monkey wrench would not be among the first tools I reach for.

Sesse__ 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Of course when the interviewer asks me to use "any language", I'll assume they want Python or Java or C++ or Rust, not Bash or ALGOL 68.

When I did interviews, I used to ask for “any imperative language”. Most people chose C or Java, some chose e.g. Python and the best solutions looked very different from the C/Java ones. I did not deduct points for either; a good solution is a good solution.

I once had a candidate that chose Oberon, because it was the only language they felt comfortable with (by their own account). They fell through on the interview for other reasons, but this seriously made me consider to what degree they had any programming experience at all outside a few select school assignments.

Independent of that, if someone came with a solution in a constraint solver, my next question would be (as it usually was, regardless of approach) “and what is the runtime complexity of your solution?” and I'd be impressed if they had any nonobvious thoughts about that!

psychoslave 4 days ago | parent [-]

Even in most used languages it's hard to be accurate without making profiling. And when using a framework, it's almost a garantee that you have no idea of the complexity under the hood of all the facilities you rely on.

echoangle 3 days ago | parent [-]

But with an explicitly implemented algorithm, you can probably at least give an upper bound.

tdeck 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I'll assume they want Python or Java or C++ or Rust, not Bash or ALGOL 68.

I've solved interview questions with one line of Bash before and gotten an offer. The question was something like "count all the files in this folder with a name ending in X". The interviewer was happy I had a quick solution and they could move on to talking about something more interesting.

zahlman 4 days ago | parent [-]

The obvious ways to do this sort of thing in Bash have some nasty gotchas on non-standard filenames, though.

And a Python solution that avoids those problems is also quite simple and terse for the example you gave, and probably for most problems in the category.

sigotirandolas 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Maybe things are this equal and fair on the senior, high-paying part of the spectrum

I don't think the fundamental dynamics change by seniority, just that after some level there may simply be a smaller pool.

From the interviewers perspective, it makes sense to reject a candidate if they see any possibility it could be a flop. A bad hire is going to frustrate the team and look bad to the company, missing the best candidate is just going to result in hiring their next best pick.

> As someone just starting out, the general feeling among my peers is that I must bend to the interviewer's whims, any resistance or pushback will get you rejected.

I guess this is very context dependent but I can also see "bending to the interviewer's whims" backfiring if they see you're just trying to flatter them. I could see some interviewers valuing that you can explain your point if it's framed in a way that shows you are both observant and easy to work with. If it's framed as a more aggressive kind of pushback, yes that's going to get you rejected.

But yeah, I can also see that if you're willing to take any offer at any company as a junior just to get your feet into the industry most interviewers may not be specially smart and resisting is likely to go wrong.

arcbyte 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the general feeling among my peers is that I must bend to the interviewer's whims

This is just conflict avoidance and naivety. After a while you start to realize that there's a whole world of people just like on HN and *we hire people too*. No matter what you do, youll end up in the place you deserve. If you try to be sneaky, you will end up working for people who are either easily fooled or see right through how to exploit you. If you let your nerd shine you'll end up with people who love your nerdiness.

tavavex 4 days ago | parent [-]

> After a while you start to realize that there's a whole world of people just like on HN and we hire people too. No matter what you do, youll end up in the place you deserve.

I mean, I'm hoping for that too. But it also feels like this only applies as long as there's a balance of likeminded people who are already in the industry vs. the people looking to get a job. For someone like me, without a real network, meeting a person like the kind you mention is extremely unlikely. Even then, most of these people are looking for more qualified candidates, since there's an overabundance of juniors and seniority is a good predictor for being really passionate about their field. So, maybe I'll figure that out someday, but right now I just need a job, and what people in my cohort do is a way to try and get a job at all costs.

sushisource 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When I say "any language" when interviewing candidates, I mean it. I would be stoked if someone busted out J in an interview.

Of course, my team also writes SDKs in a bunch of different languages, so it makes sense. Even if that weren't the case though, I'd be stoked. To your point though, early in your career, I get your viewpoint. It's hard out there to get a foot in the door and you have to seize opportunities.

addaon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> As someone just starting out, the general feeling among my peers is that I must bend to the interviewer's whims, any resistance or pushback will get you rejected.

But interviews are bidirectional. The company is deciding if they want me, and I’m deciding if I want them. If I chose to use Self or Forth as the whiteboard context for the conversation we’re having, it’s deliberately to make the interviewer think, and hopefully learn. If the experience of thinking differently about a problem (that they chose!) and learning something new is a negative signal to them, that’s fine —- it being a negative signal to them is a negative signal to me, and I don’t want to be there anyway! If they’re excited, and intrigued, and give “12 o’clock” feedback — well, that’s the team I want to work with. So I’ve helped us both accomplish our goals (making accurate assessments about fit), and aligned our metrics along the way.

jaggederest 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Unless you're special and the company wants you in particular, it costs them nothing to turn you down in favor of the other 10000 perfect applicants, while you must find a job to survive.

This is not what you see in practice. Trying to hire, the view is very much different, in my experience. Every candidate has strengths and flaws, it's much more of a... constraint problem!

The idea that there even exists a perfect candidate is one of the biggest issues with hiring practices in tech these days.

I, for one, would be extremely impressed by a candidate breaking out J or Prolog for a constraint problem. But I'm also not a typical hiring manager for sure.

hoten 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interviews go both ways ... I don't think they lost out on anything they wanted.

bluGill 5 days ago | parent [-]

That is what people miss about interviews. Often when you interview you don't have reasonable leads on any other job and so you don't feel like there is a choice since you likely need a job (unemployment rarely pays as well as a job). However interviews are not only about the company deciding if they will hire you, they are also about do you want to work there and convincing you to take the job if one is offered.

So make sure you use those "do you have any questions" time to ask questions! What is it really like to work there. How much notice do you need to give before taking vacation? Do they really give pay raises? How often do they lay people off? What is the dress code? Do they let you take time for your kids school activities? And so on - these questions should be things that are important to you - find out.

In the best cases the interview is only about convincing you to take the offer - generally because someone who you worked with at a previous job said "hire this person" and they trust that person enough to not need any other interview. So keep your network open.

tavavex 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

People don't miss that about interviews, they just know that the balance of power is so skewed that the interests of the employer become the only relevant part. The employer can keep going through hundreds of applicants until they find someone who's literally perfect in every single way, they have nearly unlimited time. Meanwhile, the applicants need a job now, any job at all, they're on a hard time limit until their money runs out.

I feel like in practice, unless you're an established, senior professional in a high-paying, in-demand field with a network to rely on, this would go something like:

> What is it really like to work there. How much notice do you need to give before taking vacation? Do they really give pay raises? How often do they lay people off? What is the dress code? Do they let you take time for your kids school activities?

"Candidate ABC seems too demanding and picky, constantly inquiring about irrelevant specifics. They would be a bad fit for our company culture. I advise going with candidate XYZ instead."

nsxwolf 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I have to push back on the unlimited amount of time thing. Maybe in FAANG that’s true but in the places I’ve worked for, hiring is something that comes down from on high - someone tells us they need N bodies for some project, and we need to have a team hired by some deadline. We really can’t interview endlessly.

tavavex 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I don't mean that you're literally allowed to run interviews for years. I mean that companies can, if they choose to, interview people indefinitely until they find a suitable candidate. The company won't collapse if they don't find an employee by the deadline, it's not imperative to their existence, it's just a nice to have, a goal. Maybe some project or initiative doesn't pan out or gets pushed back if no one gets hired, but the impact of all that seems rather limited. On the other hand, my existence is fully contingent on finding a job, and if I overrun the deadline I have to find a place to work, I won't be able to eat and pay rent. My time limit is existential, their time limit is artificial and fully in the realm of planning.

chipsrafferty 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's also very expensive to interview, since you're typically paying people who make over $100 an hour to interview people and review their code.

bluGill 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe in some companies. Every interviewer I've talked to has never considered those a negative. Most don't even think of them at all once the interview is over. Of course I've always worked in companies where people work their 8 hours and go home to their family and so you would be a good fit (depending on what you asked).

I know applicants need the job more than they need you. However you still have options if you don't get this one - you should always be following several leads until you finally get a job. Odds are your other leads are not anywhere close to as advanced as this, but if you can wait a couple more months you have a chance.

freehorse 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unless you are really desperate to find a job, there are definitely workplaces you would want to avoid. While a power imbalance does in principle exist, that doesn’t mean you usually have no choice at all. Of course that is less of a case when you just start, but in general pp can go around doing interviews and negotiating positions rather than just accept the first offer.

Jensson 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> they just know that the balance of power is so skewed that the interests of the employer become the only relevant part

That happens since people only apply to very well paying jobs. If you apply to shit enough jobs they wont be asking hard questions, and those who offer shit jobs will say "all the power lies with the employees, I have no power to make them stay or apply, I am social and nice to them and they still reject my job offer!".

Just give the companies what they want and they all will want you, it is that easy. If you try to give them something they don't care about, like a hiring manager giving you a smile and minimum wage, of course you will get rejected a lot. Give them what they ask for, not what you think they should want.

saagarjha 4 days ago | parent [-]

I’ve had some of my hardest interview questions come from the people who underpay significantly.

tayo42 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> So make sure you use those "do you have any questions" time to ask questions!

I started giving interviews again and im surprised how many people dont ask anything. I'm an IC, not a hiring manager, and only evaluating a specific thing, (technical assement) and still nothing really.

geoka9 4 days ago | parent [-]

It just goes to show how skewed the power balance is right now. People are probably afraid to make an extra move that can deduct points for any obscure reason.

When I interview people I encourage them to ask any question they want and I make damned sure it doesn't reflect in my report to the higher-ups! Just imagine being in their shoes, you could be in the same position tomorrow!

aDyslecticCrow 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Use the right tool for the job. Thats engineering.

Instead you insist we should solve a nieche problem with a ill suited tool, while inventing a costume solution when a standard solution exist.

tdeck 4 days ago | parent [-]

This kind of tradeoff discussion is good to explicitly call out in an interview. I often say things like "if this were my own project I'd use X, but on a team I would probably try to find a library in a language the team already uses".

Bringing the team up on Prolog and integrating it into your CI/CD system and finding some way to connect it with other services is often going to be a poor choice, even if in isolation it's the very best tool for the job. And that's the best case solution - more likely the tests will be limited and not automated, the code review will be rubber stamp because only the author knows the language, and the code and deploy process will be a black box that everyone is afraid to touch once the author moves on.

Obviously in an interview none of the code should make it into production, but being openly pragmatic is still a good idea. And if you use an obscure language, you'd better have better than usual communication skills to concisely explain how the code works for someone who hasn't used that language before. I've seen it done well but it's difficult.

Freedom2 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sabotaging? The candidate learned that their interviewers, and probably the company as a whole, isn't curious about languages or stuff that is outside of their wheelhouse.

What if the interviewers decided to ask the candidate about their language choice and trade-offs between different languages? Wouldn't that actually give them more signals into the skill of the engineer, rather than just blindly following their script?

HumblyTossed 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They dodged a bullet. It would have been hell working there.

_se 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why would you ever want to work somewhere that clearly employs such unqualified individuals? And not only that, but allows those individuals to be the face of their company to prospective hires?

A company's interview process tells you a lot about how the company thinks and operates. This was was surely a dumpster fire.

olddustytrail 4 days ago | parent [-]

> Why would you ever want to work somewhere that clearly employs such unqualified individuals

Because you're unemployed and need to work to get some money.

Do you think you're a super intelligent person when you couldn't even figure that out?

_se 4 days ago | parent [-]

It goes without saying that someone needing money that badly wouldn't do what the OP here did. Stop trying to be right and start trying to see the world for what it is. It'll help you do better.

dietr1ch 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What's the point of doing well if you already determined you wouldn't even look at their offer?

nice_byte 3 days ago | parent [-]

What's the point of wasting time? Walk out of the fucking interview then.