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paulryanrogers 5 days ago

> remember, even in Japan somebody could make some kind of battery ignited home-made shotgun and kill Shinzo Abe.

Countries with strict gun control enjoy far lower rates of firearm accidents, suicides, and murders. IMO it's clearly worth the tradeoff. Very few of us live in a place where only guns can solve our problems.

The fact that occasionally someone goes to great lengths to kill doesn't mean we should make it easier for everyone.

codyb 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

So... if anything, this is the exact situation stricter gun laws wouldn't really prevent. Which would be the targeted assassination of a societal figure by a determined ideologue or partisan or mole.

In which case you'd need a strong internal investigatory services in order to root these plots out before they happen by following up on leads and tips.

Well... not to get political, but I think we're hollowing that out too?

potato3732842 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

>strong internal investigatory services in order to root these plots out before they happen

Who will necessarily be so strong they'll be capable of pulling such things off to serve their own ends.

It's an intractable problem all the way down.

paulryanrogers 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So... if anything, this is the exact situation stricter gun laws wouldn't really prevent. Which would be the targeted assassination of a societal figure by a determined ideologue or partisan or mole.

My point isn't that outlawing guns would stop every possible scenario. Rather it would make killings of all kinds far less likely, which is a win for everyone--even hate-spewing pundits.

SV_BubbleTime a day ago | parent [-]

Remind us how was Abe assassinated in Japan?

msie 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, you wouldn't be able to reproduce such a long-range kill with a shabbily constructed firearm. You would have to be up close, which would be harder to do.

komali2 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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artificialLimbs 5 days ago | parent [-]

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Group_B 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's simply too late for real gun control in the US. Like how would that ever be enforced? There's too many guns already, and we have too many people down south that would be happy to smuggle guns back up North. And trying to control the ammo would be even more unrealistic. The gun culture America created over the past 100+ years is a massive mistake, and I don't think there is any undoing of it. Should have been more control immediately post WWII imo.

danpalmer 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not from the US so I only have an outsider's view of the culture, and FWIW I'm also not from Australia although I have emigrated here now.

Australia seemed to have a deeper relationship with guns previously, that stemmed partially out of necessity (farming etc), but there are also a lot of parallels with US culture here – the American dream, being a colony hundreds of years ago, etc, some focus on personal rights and freedoms, being a federation of states, etc. I don't think it was as deep a relationship as the US, but coming from the UK it seemed that Australia had a very different view than the UK.

Australia turned this all around. The culture shifted, and people realised that for the greater good it was something they needed to get past, and they did.

Maybe there's hope for US gun control yet, although the turning point for Australia was a (single) mass shooting. Maybe the US needs a much bigger turning point. I'm a little surprised that the Las Vegas shooting a while ago didn't provide that.

grier 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I live in the US. I don't hold much hope in gun control changing after recent years. Recent federal and state policy is trending towards less regulation and removal of the previous administrations regulations.

In 2024, estimated 16,576 deaths in the US from guns (excluding suicide, which is a very large addition on top of that), and 499 mass shootings.

hn_acc1 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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rcpt 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A lot of stuff would not happen if it took a little more effort. Giving people some extra time to second guess themselves is a big deal.

artificialLimbs 5 days ago | parent [-]

This problem didn't happen in the 50s and 60s, when people brought their guns to school for funsies.

paulryanrogers 5 days ago | parent [-]

Actually it did, just without so much press.

artificialLimbs 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Worst take today. The 2nd amendment was the SECOND thing the founders put in for a reason. They just got done fighting a war against the government with WEAPONS OF WAR. It was written specifically to enable fighting against tyrannical government, which is VASTLY worse than all mass shooters combined.

mbs159 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

What are the odds of winning against a tyrannical government that has UAVs, nukes, tanks, helicopters and jets?

SideQuark 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

100%. The US took all that capability and could not win in 20 years of fighting in Afghanistan against such a force. Same in Vietnam.

The US populace is vastly larger and better armed and capable than Afghanistan.

The US military requires a massive economy to function. If it tries to attack itself, those little armed people could stop it, the economy would crash, and the US military would crumble without needed support and supplies.

A final issue is the US troops would lose a lot of soldiers if they were told to go attack fellow citizens. The soldiers would quit, would hesitate, would not want to kill people they view as their own people.

So armed citizenry absolutely have major power against the govt.

Finally, if you were in a country where the govt set out to kill its citizens, would you rather have arms or be completely unarmed?

NickC25 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

>The US took all that capability and could not win in 20 years of fighting in Afghanistan against such a force.

We had no military objective in Afghanistan.

Our only goal there was to enrich contractors who had stockholders working at the highest levels in the Pentagon and White House. That goal was achieved spectacularly.

mbs159 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The US military would be the defending force, though, which would put The People at a disadvantage. Pushing through the defenses of a multi-trillion dollar military with AR-15s seems unlikely. I don't even think that China's armed forces could defeat the US military, let alone civilians armed with AR-15s

All being said, I am no military guru and I could be wrong

ta20240528 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Quite good actually, except the prize is that you'll end up like Haiti.

artificialLimbs 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Citizens should be allowed to own UAVs, nukes, tanks, helicopters, and jets. It says in the text: "shall not be infringed." Besides that, who do you think is going to do the fighting, exactly?

ryan_lane 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The 2nd amendment specifies "well regulated militias", but somehow this part is always left out by gun enthusiasts. The idea was to ensure states can have militias, and that those militias would be allowed to have guns. Somehow this has been stretched by the gun lobby to "everyone should be able to have a gun with absolutely no restrictions", when that's absolutely not what is stated in the 2nd amendment.

svieira 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

The members of militias at the time of the ratification of the 2nd amendment were required to supply their own guns by statue, which is how you get the individual right - from the duty to be a member of the militia. Which still exists today (though in statute it is often called the "unorganized" or "state" militia to distinguish it from the National Guard, which is actually a branch of the US Army by statue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(United_States)...

SideQuark 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The bill of rights are about personal freedoms, as is made clear during the discussion leading up to them. All states copied these in some form into their own constitutions, and if you go look at those, most are quite explicit this is a personal right. The claim otherwise is a very recent claim.

Congress around 1982 had the Library of Congress issue a study about this in great depth, with millions of citations to historical documents, which give ample evidence and quotes. You may have to dig to find it, but it's a good read to gain more understanding.

Also the second militia act of 1792 actually required all able bodied men to own guns, and this was the law for well over the following century.

The founders had no qualms about everyone having arms.

paulryanrogers 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> The founders had no qualms about everyone having arms.

Thankfully, whatever they meant then, we live today and can change the constitution and the laws to suit present circumstances. Nothing is sacred.

artificialLimbs 4 days ago | parent [-]

>> Nothing is sacred.

This is the thought process of the morally depraved, upon which every tyrannical government establishes its power.

paulryanrogers 4 days ago | parent [-]

Please help me understand what must be kept sacred.

artificialLimbs 4 days ago | parent [-]

I can't but you can read the bible.

It's basically everything, except that which is evil.

paulryanrogers 4 days ago | parent [-]

I've read the Bible at least four times. I'd rather not stone people for being born different. Nor inspire PTSD in children or adults with silly stories about punishment in eternal flames.

Good and evil are even more subjective than how people perceive colors. I hope we can at least agree that murder is wrong, and the tools which facilitate the most murder should be the most heavily regulated.

artificialLimbs 4 days ago | parent [-]

Might have read it but clearly didn't understand the point of the sacrifice and the new covenant. You shouldn't be telling young children they're going to burn in hell for eternity any more than you should talk to them about sex.

Murder is wrong.

Every citizen worth a damn should own guns and the idea that they should not be regulated by the government is enshrined in the 2nd amendment to the US constitution. Every gun law created since is an abberation that should be abolished.

paulryanrogers 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The first three words of 2A is "A well regulated...". IDK where this idea comes from that guns cannot be regulated.

Shall we say prisoners have the right to bear arms? Felons with a violent past? People with mental illness? Surely there must be limits. Few rights are absolute in every circumstance.

ryan_lane 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm not personally against individuals owning guns, but the part that is somehow vehemently opposed is the "well-regulated" part. There's effectively no regulation, and somehow the 2nd amendment has been warped to leave out the part of regulation, to make folks believe they're entitled to guns without limit.

vel0city 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Does it say "the right of the well-regulated militias to bear arms" or "the right for the states to bear arms"?

I'm for a lot more gun control than what we have today, but it's "the right of the people" in the text.

SV_BubbleTime 5 days ago | parent [-]

Neither.

[As a necessity for a free state, A well trained and in good working order group of able bodies citizens capable of fight for defense of self and state, is required], the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Militia is just the people. Oxford 1800s has well-regulated to mean “in good working order”.

koolba 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither.

SideQuark 5 days ago | parent [-]

You should learn about the source and context of that quote. It does not mean what you think it means.

For example, https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou...

michaelhoney 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

and yet, what have the NRA types done so far about the tyrannical government

adgjlsfhk1 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

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5 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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coderenegade 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And when those countries run into issues because the government is incompetent, people start wishing they had guns again. It's all well and good to give up guns when the system works, but when it doesn't, you lose self determination.

Japan is, famously, a country where the system generally works. Hell, a late train would get you a letter for your boss. It's a bit different in places where the police don't have the resources, or dangerous individuals aren't removed from the public.

paulryanrogers 4 days ago | parent [-]

Is it guns that keep governments honest and responsive to the populace? Or is it a culture of trust, honesty, and non-violence?

Yemen is in second place for guns per person. How responsive is their government to the people?

coderenegade 3 days ago | parent [-]

My post wasn't about keeping the government honest, it was about the individual's right to protect themselves from anyone, including the government. Guns empower the individual to defend themselves without having to rely on the effective intervention of government, because they're an equalizer. This matters when the government loses effectiveness, either because resources are stretched thin (so, ineffective policing) or because incompetence or ideology creeps in (the judiciary does a poor job of removing dangerous individuals from the public). In places with effective governance, guns aren't really necessary, and it's tempting to trade them in for a small gain in security. The issue is that governments change over time, and effective systems can become ineffective. When that happens, people suddenly find themselves wanting guns again.

The debate over guns actually hinges on the extent to which the individual should be empowered to defend themselves, and historically, it hasn't just been about guns, but about all weapons, and even martial arts (which have also been banned at various points in history). Governments don't like to empower the individual, because they want to maintain a monopoly over violence (for many practical reasons), and because empowering individuals often creates its own set of trust problems (which is true for anything -- how many drivers are trustworthy, for example). Defenseless individuals are easier to govern from an administrative perspective, and if a government is good at protecting the populace from threats, it works. In fact, it can be better for the population as a whole, at least while the government is competent. But life is messy, and there are points where individuals need to defend themselves. As systems break down, not only does the need increase, but also the effectiveness of the means, because the threats you have to defend yourself against by definition don't play by the rules.

This, imo, is the real point of the second amendment. The Bill of Rights is essentially a declaration that certain rights are derived from a higher authority than government, which is why they are inalienable. No one needs permission to defend themselves, and it's my belief that the right to bear arms was put in there to ensure that should the system fail or become ineffective, the people would still be able to exercise one of their most fundamental natural rights. It certainly wasn't an accident, because it was the second thing that they added. The verbiage around government and militias makes sense in the context of having just fought a war of independence, but it also makes sense when you consider that it's often well-meaning governments that take this right away.

paulryanrogers an hour ago | parent [-]

Guns are more often used in crimes (~400K per year) than to stop crime (~70K). Nevermind accidents and suicides.

When was the last time that private gun ownership helped overcome a dangerous government?

Whatever the reason for the 2A, in practice, it has contributed to far more death than it prevented.

tekknik 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Countries with strict gun control enjoy far lower rates of firearm accidents, suicides, and murders.

So let’s define what your definition of strict gun control is. Also, if you want people to care more, stop including suicides because it drastically changes the numbers.

paulryanrogers 5 days ago | parent [-]

Suicide would be more rare if guns didn't make it so easy.

Shocka1 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I see where you are going there, but I'm not so sure that rings true. Not to get too dark, but IIRC, Japan has higher suicide rates. And most are non-gun methods, like hanging, throwing oneself in front of a train, etc.

seanmcdirmid 5 days ago | parent [-]

Are you sure you don’t mean South Korea? Japan is about at level with the USA, and actually lower since 2024.

Shocka1 4 days ago | parent [-]

I did not check into SK, but Japan has consistently been about the same or higher with the US for many years. Even with a drop in the last year, still very similar to one another.

The purpose of my original comment was that the US dwindles Japan in firearms, but Japanese still manage to kill themselves just fine. So it's not a strong point by the parent I responded to. If Japan maintained that decrease for several more years, I think this would be worth revisiting, but for now it doesn't have much weight.

seanmcdirmid 4 days ago | parent [-]

South Korea is really high. Japan used be high but is much lower now (comparable to the USA). You can make your point more quickly today with South Korea’s suicide rate, which is really really bad. Mental health is important, the higher suicide rates in red states could just be about them being more depressed (eg from higher poverty, or overwork?) and having less access to mental health resources than just having more access to guns. Poverty might explain it, which is why New Mexico (the poorest blue state) is so high, but then you have Utah which is usually the exception red state, and Colorado, which is a richer blue state, in the 20/100k list. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States

Note that Montana, the worst state for suicide, is about the same as South Korea at 28/100k.

I say this sadly as having had a friend kill herself in High School via a gun her dad had lying around. And ya, it was a red state (Mississippi).

Shocka1 4 days ago | parent [-]

Understand and noted on the points you make. Also, I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

tekknik 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

suicide is championed by progressives outside this country, and machines have been built to increase nitrogen to give a comfortable death. the left is not against suicide, they are finding reasons to disarm people. this is why they will lose, their arguments are not rational.

paulryanrogers an hour ago | parent [-]

Are some progressives championing well regulated suicide (requiring verification and waiting periods) for people who are suffering? Compared to unregulated, ubiquitous, and uncounted firearms which enable suicide+murder+accidents as simply as pointing and pulling a trigger?

What exactly is irrational?

SideQuark 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Japan has strict gun control and an extremely high rate of suicide. The US has more homicides per capita by simply beating someone to death by ones bare hands than many countries have total homicide rate (check data in FBI UCR). Restricting suicides and homicides to only those with guns is a dishonest comparison when the rates without the gun restriction are more useful and flip the outcomes of the discussion. I doubt a murder by non-gun is fundamentally different to a family or society than one by a gun, or any other method.

The Obama CDC study on gun control concluded that guns are used to stop far more crimes than they are used for in crimes. It concluded that a household with a gun saw far less bad outcomes than a household without during home invasions. It concluded a lot of things that didn't sit well with the left, so after all the fanfare to make it, it was downplayed by that admin. Read it, it's quite interesting.

Think through that a bit.

paulryanrogers 5 days ago | parent [-]

> The Obama CDC study on gun control concluded that guns are used to stop far more crimes than they are used for in crimes.

Citation please. NCVS data puts defensive gun use around 70K instances per year while OJP.gov data puts firearm crimes in the 400K range.

throwaway48476 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No one wants to get stabbed either.

jbboehr 5 days ago | parent [-]

Or run over by a van.

artificialLimbs 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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torstenvl 5 days ago | parent [-]

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paulryanrogers 5 days ago | parent [-]

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