| ▲ | 5tk18 2 days ago |
| Would you mind elaborating on this? I don’t understand the point. Maybe naively, I would think that evidence of life on mars would increase the probability of life on exoplanets. |
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| ▲ | nwah1 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| If the solution to the Fermi Paradox is that there's a great filter that prevents many advanced civilizations from sticking around long enough to be observable, then we hope that the filter is behind us rather than in front of us. The more common that life is, the more likely it is in front of us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter |
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| ▲ | Razengan 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The Fermi "Paradox" is based on so many naive self-referencing assumptions it's ridiculous that it's considered so seriously so often. | | |
| ▲ | mr_mitm 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't even understand why people call it a paradox. A paradox has no obvious solution. This one has many obvious solutions, the most obvious one that the premise is faulty: perhaps life is not common at all. | | |
| ▲ | credit_guy 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There is another premise that is faulty: that the answer to "where's everybody" is that "since we see nobody, there is nobody". But for all we know the planets around Alpha Centauri may be teaming with life, and there would be no way for us to detect that. If only 1% of the solar systems in our galaxy host intelligent life, then the number of intelligent life forms would be truly mind-boggling, yet we wouldn't be able to detect a whisper of their presence. For the simple reason that space is also mind-blowingly vast, and all signals decay with the square root of the distance. | |
| ▲ | benbayard 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's part of the Great Filter answer to the Fermi paradox. Though, I agree, it's not really a paradox. If the great filter is true, the first filter is life forming at all. We hope that the filter is behind us and that's why intelligent life in the universe seems rare, rather than ahead of us. If life is common, but intelligent life is uncommon, that's concerning because it makes it more likely that the filter is ahead of us. Meaning, something like, once an organism has control over the whole planet there's something that prevents them from going to multiple planets. |
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| ▲ | estimator7292 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I mean, we don't have any other perspective to look through. There is no other point of reference to draw from. We try to compensate by assuming that our system, planet, and species aren't particularly special and are probably about average in terms of supporting life. We can't know or even begin to guess at what an alien civilization may do or think or how they evolved. Best we can do is assume it's probably somewhat similar to our experience. At least it's based on something factual. Anything else is really just wild speculation. We pretty much have to assume aliens will be sort of similar to us because we haven't met any. Our experience is the only one we've got, so it's the most reasonable baseline we have. We know that aliens will probably be wildly different from us, but it's so unknowable as to be moot. Do we base our assumptions on Heinlein's writing? Asimov? Douglas Adams? Anything other than what we know from our own experience is just fanciful fiction. But also you're not supposed to take as read the Fermi paradox, Kardashev scale, or any other ways of thinking about aliens. It's implied that they won't be anything like us. You're not supposed to take it as a literal statement that alien species will be hairless bipeds with a warlike society who think and look like us. You're supposed to follow the assumptions that statistically, we're probably not special as a species and probably any aliens we meet will have evolved along similar lines and probably will be relatable to us. Implicitly we understand that this likely is not true. We just don't know and there aren't really any options that are more reasonable or reliable than basing assumptions on the one and only planet we know that has intelligent life. | | |
| ▲ | feoren 2 days ago | parent [-] | | This is too pessimistic. We can absolutely "begin to guess" at what an alien civilization might look like or how they might have evolved. Reasonable possibilities are very heavily constrained by information theory, the laws of thermodynamics, the very finite number of elements that make up the universe, chemistry, particle physics, etc. You can appeal to fantasy by dreaming up multi-dimensional energy beings, and of course such things have some tiny but nonzero probability of existing. But you can do the same thing regarding what we might find if we look at some random pond water under a microscope. Maybe we'll find crazy silicon-based life forms, or some phylum we never knew existed, or a microscopic Tyrannosaurus Rex! Maybe. But it's perfectly reasonable to ascribe an extremely small probability to such things based on everything we already know about the universe, and it's reasonable for the same reason to ascribe a very small probability to the existence multi-dimensional energy beings that would completely defy our understanding. For any given alien life form we might find, there's a very high probability (I give it at least 90%) that it would be based on chemical pathways that would make us go "oh, neat", but not go "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!" | | |
| ▲ | Razengan a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm a complete layman, but I wonder if chemistry on Earth (and rest of our solar system) is also influenced somewhat by the particular properties of our star, its and our magnetospheres etc. and the gas clouds our planets coalesced from. As in, different stars may encourage slightly different chemical reactions and interactions on their planets. Like, for example, could it be possible for a planet to form with a naturally highly magnetized mineral in its crust? Would it affect the rest of the chemistry on the planet? Would it cause the ground to interact with its star's magnetic envelope, like our atmosphere within the Auroras does? |
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| ▲ | AIPedant 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Putin and Xi fantasizing about immortality via 3D-printed organs quite starkly illustrated that many adults do not understand the difference between science and science fiction. |
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| ▲ | kjkjadksj 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The elephant in the room here is that advanced intelligent life as we understand it is some inevitable step in evolution. A random walk of mutations on top of mutations lead us to this and only because the environmental context favored adaptions toward intelligence in the case of our species at the time. This is probably why most sci fi is not written by evolutionary biologists. | | |
| ▲ | sillyfluke 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, but as time goes to infinity there will eventually be an environment context and mutation path that will result in something that has a similar level of intelligence. In fact, this makes the preoccupation with humans escaping a Great Filter all the more childish. Even on a single planet the species that will evolve from humans by the time Earth is swallowed by the sun will have less in common with humans than we do now with single cell organisms. Internalize that fact a little bit. Once you realize it is absurd to talk about the human species being preserved as is to the end of time, you will understand the silliness of this obsession. Cause after that point you might as well believe in a deity. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, it suffices to hope that only single cell organisms survive the Great Filter, since given enough time it might lead to something that is as intelligent or more intelligent and kind than humans. Embrace the silliness. The answer to "Why should we humans spread to other planets?" need only be "Why the fuck not?" That is, unless you want to fund your rocket company. In which case you have to make people believe in a deity. | |
| ▲ | soiltype 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Er... No that's not a meaningful critique. There's no framework that doesn't assume it's a random process. The point is to find out how likely each step is to occur, randomly. | | |
| ▲ | kjkjadksj 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Even the Kardashev scale is based on the assumption that unfettered economic activity as humans conceived of it in the mid 20th century would be a common enough phenomenon to classify, including shoehorning in our wildest science fiction ideas. Only the most unscrupulous of our species probably want to maximize production of widgets beyond the limits of this planet to the point where a Dyson sphere must be built. Would a Buddhist monk have any interest in that for example, or are their metrics of “productivity” more metaphysical perhaps? Or someone considering preserving a system and not exceeding what it is capable of sustainably offering? How about a blue whale, do they have an increasing energy demand per capita as well? |
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| ▲ | Qem 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | If the origin is not independent, that doesn't necessarily change the position of the filter. |
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| ▲ | withinboredom 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We’re working off the assumption that life is rare in the universe (and thus a great filter). That is why the stars aren’t covered in life. If this isn’t true, and life is actually common throughout the galaxy ... then the great filter might still be ahead of us — such as not surviving technological adolescence. Meaning we’re not special, we just haven’t died off yet. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > assumption that life is rare in the universe Great filters start with the observation that we have detected no signs of alien technological civilization. The assumption is this means they’re rare. | | |
| ▲ | withinboredom 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That doesn’t mean much. If it is actually common and the great filter is passing technological adolescence, then at least one civilisation would need to be around at least a hundred thousand years ago to be detected by us. Then, they would need to survive the great filter. We’ve only been broadcasting for 80 years or so, and any modern technology is probably indistinguishable from noise... In other words, even if the average technological civilisation lasts 1000 years, the odds of those civilisations overlapping are nearly zero if the great filter is ahead of us. Unless civilisations manage to last much, much longer than 1,000 years (millions of years), the chance that two blips overlap in time and space closely enough to detect each other is basically negligible. That is why the “life on Mars” point feels ominous: - If abiogenesis is easy, the filter isn’t there. - If the filter is later (like surviving technological adolescence), then most civilisations blink out quickly. Which means overlapping, detectable civilisations would be vanishingly rare, explaining the silence, but also suggesting our future may be short. | | |
| ▲ | pantalaimon 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Life is pretty robust, civilization is not.
I'd say it's pretty intuitive that the filter is ahead of us - civilizations collapsing has happened multiple times already in the last few millennia. Earth becoming sterile has never happened as far as we know. | | |
| ▲ | withinboredom 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, but a civilization collapsing doesn’t kill off an entire species nor (usually) wipe out knowledge completely. Thus it wouldn’t be a great filter. However, perhaps it is pretty common to create a grey goo, or nuke yourself, or whatever. That would be a life ending event. | | |
| ▲ | pantalaimon a day ago | parent [-] | | It's still about what we are able to observe.
If there is a bronze age civilization in the vicinity of betelgeuse, how would we tell?
You'd need a civilization advanced enough to do radio communication - and that has a lot of fragile interdependencies. |
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| ▲ | harshalizee 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or just really hard to detect with existing technology. Combine that with the vastness of the universe, it's not a unreasonable take. |
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| ▲ | estimator7292 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not really. The great filter idea is only one of many proposed solutions to the Fermi paradox. The Dark Forest hypothesis would have the universe filled with life, which is all in deep hiding from an intergalactic civilization hellbent on destroying all other life. Personally I think the great filter is a dumb idea for precisely the reason you posit. The universe is (probably) infinite, which means there's an infinite probability that we aren't special or alone. Maybe we're the first; the universe is (relatively) pretty young from what we can tell. I doubt that too, but I think it's one of the most plausible explanations. But really what it comes down to is that in an infinite universe, the probability of anything happening exaxtlt once is infinitely small. It is infinitely more probable that there is or will be other life out there. Really, out of uncountable trillions of planets in trillions of galaxies across tens of billions of years, how could it be that exactly one planet can produce life? I think it's egotistical navel-gazing in the extreme to assume we're alone. | | |
| ▲ | withinboredom 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If you take the beginning of the cosmos to be 1 second ago, the point where other galaxies will be unobservable is in just a few seconds (at T+7–8). We’ve only had civilization for about 700-800 nanoseconds. You could fit hundreds or even thousands of advanced civilizations in there and they’d never know the other existed. |
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| ▲ | dgfitz 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh, we thought that? We aren’t special. We will die off. |
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| ▲ | xg15 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I guess the question is: If there was life on mars, what happened to it? |
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| ▲ | rrmm 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the building blocks of life are so common in the universe it might be a case of "easy come, easy go". It wouldn't be surprising if simple life happened anywhere it was given half a chance at all, but one would equally expect that it would die out just as quickly when conditions changed (which they certainly did on Mars). And of course nothing is ruling out life in the nooks and crannies of Mars. | |
| ▲ | maxbond 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Presumably the planet became much less geologically active, causing Mars to lose it's magnetic field and thus it's atmosphere, and that caused a mass extinction. If there was life on the surface in the past, I imagine it still exists deep underground or in lava tubes or such. | |
| ▲ | empath75 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That actually isn't a hard question to answer. Mars lacks an active core or a magnetosphere, so the atmosphere blew away, freezing the surface and removing almost all of the liquid water. | |
| ▲ | estimator7292 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We have proven that Mars used to have a magnetic field like Earth that protected it from solar radiation. We also know that it does not presently have a magnetic field. At some point in the distant past, Mars's core cooled and solidified, which removes the magnetic field. The big problem is that the solar wind strips away the atmosphere and water, but that's (probably) not what killed all Martian life. As the magnetic field decreases, more and more harmful radiation reaches the surface. The planet was probably sterilized by radiation long before the atmosphere was lost and the oceans evaporated. We're pretty sure this is what happened. We've been studying Mars's geology for a long time and we can see evidence for most of this process. | |
| ▲ | tim333 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It may still be there doing it's thing, mostly underground. The surface of Mars is currently very dry for any life we know but there seems to be water underground https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54337779 | |
| ▲ | Qem 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Likely, when Mars went bad, their planet B was Earth. Nowadays they call themselves Earthlings (AKA us). |
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