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buu700 5 days ago

So my anecdotal theory is that the (public) education system is optimized to the edges, abandoning the middle entirely, resulting in majority decline.

Based on my anecdotal experience, this is the explanation that makes the most sense to me. I've been hearing constantly for at least a decade how atrocious American public education is, which I can't reconcile at all with my experience as a 2010 graduate of McLean High School. Either my experience was so far outside the national norm that I have no useful perspective on this issue, or the national discourse has been totally corrupted by vocal minorities and political agendas.

Personally, my teachers were consistently amazing and brilliant (RIP Mr. Bigger), curricula were rigorous, and I learned a ton that prepared me well for my life and career after high school. Every time I hear about some factoid or perspective that American schools supposedly don't teach because they're propaganda farms designed to churn out uncurious low-skill workers, I roll my eyes as I vividly recall how it was explicitly covered in my classes. It's possible my experience may have been more the exception than the rule, given that most of my classes were advanced/AP/post-AP, but I also had some of my favorite teachers in regular and honors classes and never felt like I was receiving insufficient value for my time. Maybe I just got incredibly lucky, but I really have nothing but good things to say, and can't relate at all to the picture of American public education that's been painted in the media and social media. Granted, a lot can change in 15 years, and my perspective is already going to be skewed by having attended a top-ranked school in a wealthy district.

On the flip side, my public elementary school experience was the polar opposite. In kindergarten I was tutoring third graders who needed help learning to read, but by second grade I'd been kicked out more or less for being bored with the level and pace of the course material. (Effectively. Specifically, the principal was going to move me to special ed unless my mom agreed to find a doctor willing to put me on Ritalin for my nonexistent ADHD. The 90s were wild.) So there's that. Luckily there are some great private schools in the area which my mom was able to make sacrifices to afford, but I can't help but wonder how many other kids weren't as lucky and had their whole life trajectories sabotaged from an early age. Granted, that particular principal was fired a few months after my de facto expulsion (for many very good reasons), so maybe this was all genuinely just an anomaly and very far outside the norm for completely different reasons than my high school experience.

loudmax 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I graduated from McLean High School in 1990. I had some fantastic teachers. McLean is absolutely an outlier.

McLean's formula for success is to be located in an upper-middle class district with parents who value education and are wealthy enough to provide a stable environment, but not so wealthy they must send their kids to a private school. This formula isn't something that can be easily replicated or scaled out nationwide.

The aspiration is to make excellent education available for all children, regardless of what school district their parents can afford to move into. This is a problem that looks easy on the surface, but it seems to be extremely difficult in practice. Education is a social benefit, and a lot of people seem to have rejected the notion that taxes should even pay for social benefits.

buu700 4 days ago | parent [-]

Agreed, I believe its success can potentially be replicated to some degree, but not its particular formula. I left a few thoughts on that in a follow-up comment below, but fundamentally my thinking is that comprehensive well-designed integration of AI throughout the system could allow schools to move toward leaner administrations with smaller numbers of higher-quality better-compensated teachers. Furthermore, technology like Waymo's could potentially make it viable to shuttle larger numbers of students to a smaller number of higher-quality schools.

I'm also optimistic that physical goods as a whole will become much more affordable over the next decade or two for various reasons, which would further enable the median public school to approach the level of 00s MHS without relying on local concentration of a disproportionate share of national wealth.

All that being said, my point wasn't "look how well-funded my high school was". Regardless of the reasons, it's a bright spot in a narrative of doom and gloom. Only the horror stories seem to get any attention, and if you listen to anyone with strong political views on the topic you'd think each state's governing party had turned its entire school system into a network of indoctrination camps. It's also clearly the case based on my disturbingly bad elementary school experience, and from what I've heard of some other local schools that should have comparable financing to MHS, that money isn't sufficient to provide a top-tier educational experience.

I think it's important to look at schools and counties that perform well and carefully evaluate which elements can be used as a model to help improve public education as a whole, rather than assuming that absolutely nothing is replicable without gobs of cash. For example, off the top of my head, what if the federal government provided an annual budget for a handful of top-ranking districts across the country to have their best teachers of different subjects at each grade level oversee production and maintenance of open source course materials, video lectures, and possibly LLM chatbots? What if teachers all had some equivalent of GitHub to share and collaborate on that stuff? It wouldn't fix problems like rundown facilities or availability of computers and textbooks, but it would allow the worst Latin teacher in the country to provide something a lot closer to the Mr. Bigger experience, and that's just one idea.

Aeolun 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it’s so weird that your level of education in the US (and most of the world really) seems to depend on which specific school you went to.

The Netherlands has settled on three levels of schooling and within that level (according to capacity, and desire to learn) most of the schools show relatively little variation.

The same thing continues into university, with pretty much 99% of all the universities in the Netherlands being public.

You don’t select a university based on level of theoretical educational attainment, you select one by virtue of proximity, or which of them teaches the specific courses you are interested in.

CalRobert 5 days ago | parent [-]

Dutch PISA scores have fallen badly, though. We moved here from Ireland and the basisschools seem kinda mediocre compared to what we had in Ireland. My eldest certainly learned to read much better.

Schoelenopdekaart shows pretty wide variation in how many students go on to vwo etc.

Aeolun 4 days ago | parent [-]

Fair, my experience is pretty much 25 years out of date. At the time it was pretty good.

buu700 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To expand on that a bit, based on my observations, I'd suggest the following conclusions:

1. Any reform effort needs to ensure that early education isn't overlooked. Elementary schools need capacity, processes, and expertise to appropriately deal with kids of all different knowledge/intelligence levels and backgrounds/skillsets in a personalized way, and they need oversight to ensure that lazy/incompetent/malicious teachers and administrators aren't making poor/abusive decisions that could have lifelong negative impacts on students.

2. AI will be a critical element of future reform. It's too incredibly useful of a learning and scaling tool to sleep on. Of course it's easy to misuse, but that's exactly why responsible use needs to be taught as part of research and fact-checking lessons. If they haven't already, schools need to start running small-scale experiments with incorporation of AI tools into curricula asap.

Imagine how much more you could have learned with a virtual TA in your pocket on call 24/7 for those 13 years, with human teachers in the loop to help guide any self-directed learning you might have chosen to undertake. That bright-eyed kid who never stops asking "why?" will finally have a conversational partner who never tires of answering. All the panic about hallucinations sounds like the same sensationalist takes I grew up hearing from adults about the internet and Wikipedia — a perfectly valid concern, but not sufficient to negate the value of the resource in competent hands.

liveoneggs 5 days ago | parent [-]

I'd learn zero just like every other boy who would be 100000% distracted by technology and currently uses up tons of willpower every day to avoid playing games on their mandatory-issue-device.

buu700 4 days ago | parent [-]

That's a good point. Personally, I'm not in favor of unfettered personal device access in schools. Back in my day, you used school computers on the (filtered) school network and cellphones remained off and out of sight during school hours. It was a pretty good system that moderated distractions and goofing off reasonably well. I'm not sure when or why that changed, but I don't think it was a positive change.

To your point, I would expect any sanctioned in-school student-facing AI usage to be through a school-provided platform on locked down school-owned hardware, in line with how computer/internet access already works (or how it worked 15 years ago). School-issued mobile devices with AI access could be a nice addition if they were locked down enough to sufficiently minimize distractions, but maybe sticking to laptops and desktops would work better in practice.

brettgriffin 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

buu700 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

No, I'm not saying that. I already addressed my high school's ranking, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making by harping on that.

My point is that US public education isn't universally bad, not that it's universally good.

brettgriffin 5 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

buu700 5 days ago | parent [-]

I'm not really sure what your problem is, but okay. My experience is a counterexample to the claim that American public education is bad. Maybe some public schools are bad, but not all. I chose to share a positive anecdote to balance out the negativity.

brettgriffin 5 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

buu700 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

No, I didn't proceed to say anything of the sort. You're attacking a straw man.

Even if you choose to believe there's some interpretation of my original phrasing that could mean what you're suggesting, I've now clarified several times that the idea you're making a fuss over does not reflect my sentiments.

bell-cot 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> No, you chose to share the experience of a top 10 high school in a state and then proceed to say you don't understand how other people can say any of the other 25,000 public high schools in the country are bad.

While that might be your cultural understanding of, or personal reaction to, what he said - he actually did not say that.

If this subject is sensitive for you, or useful communication just isn't happening, then it might be better to drop it and move on.

brettgriffin 4 days ago | parent [-]

This isn't a cultural misunderstanding. I asked him to clarify what he couldn't reconcile and he didn't.

To be clear, I didn't actually need him to clarify it. I wanted him to understand the fallacy in his position.

Here's GPT's response to asking what the reconciliation is. You be the judge:

> The user is having a hard time reconciling the consistently negative narrative they’ve heard about American public education—that it’s failing, propagandistic, or poorly preparing students—with their own lived experience, which was overwhelmingly positive.

> They describe going to a well-resourced high school (McLean High, in a wealthy district) where teachers were excellent, curricula were rigorous, and their education prepared them well for life and career. That stands in stark contrast to the media and social media portrayal of American schools as “atrocious” and failing.

> In short: they can’t reconcile the national discourse (education in crisis) with their personal reality (education that worked extremely well for them).

To reconcile this, he needs to understand that his personal live experienced is independent of the experience lived by others with lesser resources.

bell-cot 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Ah...okay.

When interacting with GPT - telling it that it holds some incorrect belief, then insisting that it acknowledge its belief to be wrong, and that you are right - that conversation can go quite well.

But when interacting with human beings - that conversation style generally works rather poorly.

4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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buu700 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean, at this point you're just lying, and I'm not really sure why. You're continuing to claim that I believe something that I not only never claimed to believe, but have repeatedly informed you I do not believe. Is there a particular reason you insist on attacking my character and/or intelligence based on a falsehood?

liveoneggs 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You should spend some time considering how that school got such a ranking in the first place.