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jofer 2 days ago

More likely, the date attribution in the imagery is incorrect.

As someone who works in that exact field (literally - I produce seamless mosaicked global maps and work for a satellite company), I can assure you that we don't and can't do this (generate "fake" imagery). Depending on country the exact satellite is licensed through, some areas may be lower-res (e.g. sats licensed via Canada can't provide imagery in active conflict zones above a certain resolution). The US govt can in principle demand we stop imaging for US-licensed satellites (though they never have so far as I know). A lot of regulatory details can vary based on the country 1) your satellites are licensed in, 2) your company is based in, and 3) where you're selling data.

However, none of the imagery is "fake". Our imagery sometimes feeds into google maps, and I don't know google's exact processing chain, so I can't rule out them doing something like that. However, I'd be absolutely shocked if they were for a lot of different reasons.

It's _way_ more likely that the tile data is incorrectly indicating 2025. E.g. they're using 3rd party data that doesn't have detailed scene provenance information in that area and are just showing "2025" in the absence of other information.

More interesting is the things China and some other countries do around datums. If you process things correctly, your satellite data won't align with their official street/infrastructure maps. Instead it will be randomly and smoothly shifted in different directions across the country. That's to make on-the-ground targeting based on official maps much more difficult. E.g. you can't reliably take one of the official maps and go "point the artillery at an azimuth of 321.5 degrees and target a location 4567 meters away". However, it makes things really tough when you're trying to provide a correctly processed "backdrop" mosaic to Chinese customers. (IIRC, this problem has gone away due to the ubiquity of OSM data or regulations changed in recent years. Still, China in particular has a lot of interesting regulations around map accuracy.)

mystraline 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I dont think the sat photography companies are providing false or manipulated data.

I would believe that Google and other "free" sites would be potentially under orders to edit tile data by federal mandate.

A colleague of mine back in the early 2000's put gas/water/sewer/electric maps on GIS. All from public sources. And within a few weeks, the feds caught wind of this and classified his combined maps.

Thats why I suspect editing on gas pump stations. And to be fair, they're ill-defended targets that could cause a massive chemical and pollutant spill if they were targeted (like the MAGAs shooting substations). And theres obvious national security aspects with shutting down energy grid operations.

Now yeah, there is the Chinese datum problem. But again, non-Chinese sat companies can map in accordance to their government in whichever country they are operating in.

Lammy 2 days ago | parent [-]

> All from public sources.

Relevant PG&E: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/641b21b495f049c6958...

> (like the MAGAs shooting substations)

There's no need to partisanize this. There's a very famous 2013 one from right here in the Bay Area that AFAIK is still unsolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack

> And there's obvious national security aspects with shutting down energy grid operations.

This reminds me of visiting the Moffat Tunnel and being surprised by the heavy security labeled Department of Homeland Security of all things. Then I realized there's a giant pipe running alongside the tracks that carries the water supply for the entirety of Denver lol

InitialLastName a day ago | parent | next [-]

DHS has a significant presence at many transportation infrastructure choke points as well as energy/resource infrastructure. It makes sense... an undefended tunnel or bridge would be easy to disrupt and could cause chaos. Note also the ~6+ (NYPD, NY State police, NJ State Police, MTAPD, PANYNJPD, NY National Guard, US Coast Guard, probably ICE since the ramp-up) law enforcement/defense organizations with a presence around the Hudson River crossings.

Lammy a day ago | parent [-]

> NYPD

I always think about this when I watch the WKUK “It's illegal to say…” sketch, because “under the Brooklyn Bridge” is like adjacent to One Police Plaza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEQOvyGbBtY

neilknowsbest 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I've been to the Moffat Tunnel many times and I never realized there was a water project associated with the better known rail tunnel there. FWIW, I've also never seen any sort of security there. Besides a lone Gilpin county sheriff's deputy who lives out along that road and makes it his life's mission to ticket any vehicle parked illegally on the county road.

Lammy 2 days ago | parent [-]

https://www.denverwater.org/tap/tunnel-next-tunnel-no-one-kn...

Here's my pic of the east and west portals (respectively) from the last time I visited in 2022: https://i.imgur.com/sH0RNyg.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/fGdzV4G.jpeg

The big black fence around the east portal didn't used to be there, and you can see the DHS surveillance gantry right over the tracks. You can't get anywhere close enough to even read the plaque/dedication embedded on the right side of the portal. Hope you have a good telephoto lens!

On the west side, the DHS cameras are back to the left out of frame of the shot, at the very eastern edge of the Winter Park station platform. The water system is also much more visible on the west side than on the east side: https://earth.google.com/web/search/Winter+Park,+CO/@39.8871...

The east side is much less important-looking because it just becomes South Boulder Creek: https://earth.google.com/web/search/Winter+Park,+CO/@39.9022...

And here's one of my favorite hobo channels taking a ride through it westbound :) https://youtu.be/xNvnHAkm5dk?t=2715 and west portal emergence with the water pipe clearly in view: https://youtu.be/xNvnHAkm5dk?t=2787

wkat4242 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not sure about Google but on Bing Maps they were definitely messing around with fake images.

Some of the airbases showed some fields where the actual jet bunkers are, and if you zoomed out you could see it was just a copy/paste of a field nearby. Total fakery.

They have stopped doing that since, probably because there is no point with the amount of imagery available today.

And yeah countries like China messing with their map datum is weird. And so easy to compensate that it serves no military purpose.

Theodores 2 days ago | parent [-]

> And yeah countries like China messing with their map datum is weird. And so easy to compensate that it serves no military purpose.

They have bought into mangled maps and it would be a challenge to update everything for simple lat/lon. It would be easier to get every car in China to drive on the left, for them to change their railway gauge to 7' 1/4" or to move to the Swatch Internet Time standard. Think of all the title deeds, utility maps and everything that you need surveyors for.

As for military purpose, have you ever done any work with the military? Even though every army plays a good ballistics game, they tend not to be mathematicians. I would not want it to be tested, but my hunch is the mangled maps would work extremely well, even though their foes have had decades to do their own map making.

wkat4242 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> As for military purpose, have you ever done any work with the military?

Haha no, I can't stand them and their hierarchies.

But yeah that was my point, the enemy has their own maps, with their own datums anyway.

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Think of all the title deeds, utility maps and everything that you need surveyors for.

All you need for this is to know whether the existing number corresponds to the old system or the new system and a piece of code that can convert from one to the other.

snypher 2 days ago | parent [-]

Well, the old number is 35 feet south of a medium sized pine tree and the new number is 45.1234567, if you can solve for the code we can put Esri out of business.

wkat4242 2 days ago | parent [-]

But that's not how this works. China's map datum uses the same principle, it's just shifted somewhat.

thinkingemote 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>we don't and can't do this

10 months ago there was an Ask HN: No planes visible at LHR on Google Maps Satellite view. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41841727

No planes at all on the ground, none at any gates, none parked outside. I gave some thoughts (corona, bank holiday) but you would expect to see at least a couple. Seems like the imagery was altered: that someone did and can do that.

edits - another explanation could be that the airport was closed so that the plane taking the photos could fly over it.

jofer 2 days ago | parent [-]

That's a common request for manually-created mosaics. Those are often used in flight simulation software. They want all planes manually photoshopped out of airports because they don't want you to look like you're running into another plane when landing/etc. It's a surprisingly big business for flight training. Google is probably sourcing from some of those.

By "we" I mean my company and my product does not do that. That part holds. (or, well, more precisely, that's a different product that I don't work on and isn't marketed as "imagery")

But yes, some other mosaic products are specifically requested with planes photoshopped out of airports and all waterbodies a consistent artificial color so that sunglint can be automatically simulated in flight sims for training pilots.

Because that data is often a high quality dataset available for purchase, sometimes google/etc reuses those datasets.

snypher 2 days ago | parent [-]

Surprising about of imagery with 'c. 2025 Airbus' as a watermark; I knew they did more than build aircraft and I guess this is a part of their business.

jofer a day ago | parent [-]

They're one of the largest and longest-lived satellite imagery providers, FWIW. It's a major wing of the company. They manufacture and operate very high end satellites and have for a long time.

N19PEDL2 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> More interesting is the things China and some other countries do around datums.

Here's detailed info about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...

cyp0633 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Chinese coordinates definitely can be converted to WGS-84 - it's Google that did not do that. Look at Shenzhen River in OpenStreetMap, the streets of Hong Kong and Shenzhen align with each other perfectly.