Remix.run Logo
jjice 5 days ago

Curious what the causes are and how their weighted. Seems like it'd be too complex to actually figure out what's causing the most damage, but it's very interesting. There are so many factors I'd argue are probably negatives:

- Always online phone access (and everything that comes with it)

- Generative AI for doing assignments without thought

- The COVID year or two that they had to learn from home couldn't have helped develop good habits (I know it would've for me)

Kapura 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

early on in the bush (ii) administration, they passed a bill called "no child left behind" that would cut funding from schools that couldn't achieve desired standardized test scores.

while this may seem to align incentives, in reality a school that has struggling students needs MORE resources, not less.

the outcome, in reality, is an extreme desire to "teach to the test," where developing actual skills is secondary to learning the structure of test problems and how to answer them correctly enough to keep the school from being obliterated.

teachers are one of the most valuable, most undervalued positions in society. my mother taught elementary school for 20 years; when she retired, i was making 3 times her salary doing my computer job. this is the sad but inevitable outcome from the policies put in place by a class of people that can afford to educate their children outside of the systems forced upon the working class.

m00x 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

The Obama administration reversed this in the Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA) in 2015.

Many of the schools with the most funding per student, like Washington D.C. and NYC currently underperform.

NYC has a spending of $36-40k per student with only 56% ELA, ~47% Math. Washington DC has $27k-31k of spending per student and only 22% proficient in reading and 16% in Math.

Charter schools have been the best bang for the buck. The best all-income schools are catholic schools, averaging at 1 grade level higher. Then private schools do even better, but aren't accessible to everyone, and then the top spot is left to selective high-performing schools, unsurprisingly.

bluGill 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> The best all-income schools are catholic schools, averaging at 1 grade level higher. Then private schools do even better

These are not equal comparisons. People who send their kids to a private school are choosing that, and thus care about the education their kids get. While Catholics are all income and choosing for religion reasons, generally catholic implies cultural care for education. Public schools take everyone including those who don't care about education.

In general public schools in the US are very good. However a small number in every school are kids that would be kicked out of private (including catholic) schools. There are also significant variation between schools with richer areas of a city doing better - despite often spending less on education.

FireBeyond 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Charter schools have been the best bang for the buck.

That is a lot easier when you can require a transcript from the prospective student, review it, and say, "Uh, no thank you".

There's a private technical college near here that offers EMT and paramedic training. They "guarantee" "100% success in certification and registration" for their students.

How do they get there? They boot students out after they fail (<80%) their second test in the class.

I'm not necessarily opposed to such a policy. It is, however, intellectually dishonest of them to try to tout it as a better school for that reason. Charter schools are free to reject students who will bring their grade averages down.

m00x 5 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, that's very selective. Catholic schools on the other hand just require you to be Catholic and be somewhat involved in the Parish and score much higher.

I believe this is not only restricted to Catholic schools though they are the most common. Most religious schools have higher scoring students.

toast0 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

If nothing else, parental involvement correlates with higher test scores and being enrolled in a non-default school correlates with parent involvement. So it's no surprise that being enrolled in a non-default school correlates with higher test scores.

IMHO, we always hear about such and such school (system) has X% kids proficient with $Y/year per pupil. But what I would really want to know about a school is how does a year change at the school change the proficiency of the class. If the class of 3rd graders starts the year at 20% proficient at 2nd grade level, and ends at 22% proficient at 3rd grade level, that might be a good school, even though a single point in time check says 22% proficient. But the numbers we get aren't really useful for that; a cohort analysis would be better; there's real privacy implications, but that doesn't make the numbers we get useful. :P

emmelaich 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Catholic schools in Australia don't required you to be Catholic. Although, I'm sure most kids are. And enrolling there will expose you to Catholic teaching.

I wonder if USA schools are similar. It's next to impossible to require belief.

phil21 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The vast majority to all Catholic schools in the US have no requirement of you being Catholic.

m00x 5 days ago | parent [-]

Correct. Your chances of getting in are just much better if you are, then even better if you're in the Parish.

phil21 2 days ago | parent [-]

At least around me, it's pretty easy to get into one due to enrollment not being very full in most if not all. They will of course give automatic enrollment for anyone in the parish, but I can't really argue with that since these schools are usually subsidized by the parish and local dioces.

You need to test to an academic standard of course, as they definitely want to keep the bar rather high. So they won't take all comers. But if you are either just starting out or come with an academic track record/high percentile test scores you shouldn't have much of a problem at all. When I went even 30 years ago there were plenty of low income kids who were not academic superstars. The only real metric that was universal across the board was the requirement for involved parents.

I'm sure other areas are different, but Catholic schools in my region have really suffered in recent years with a lot of them closing down.

username332211 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The no child left behind act was enacted in 2001. If you check the article, it has a nice little chart, showing a decline that starts in 2015. Prior to 2013, the results show a clear trend of improvement (in regards to the percentage of students achieving a minimum level of proficiency).

How would you explain that temporal gap? If the No Child Left Behind Act is the problem, why was the trend positive for the first 12-14 years of the time it's been in force?

programjames 5 days ago | parent [-]

Gifted programs dropped from ~72% of elementary schools to ~65% by 2013, and probably have continued declining. Given it takes 10+ years to educate a child, the school culture to change, and so on, we should expect to see quite a lag between policy and outcomes.

chrisco255 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm sorry but some F rated schools getting closed down needed to happen. There are institutions either so toxic at the administrative level or so heavily populated with kids with behavioral issues that it's impossible to fix without divvying up the student population into other schools that can better handle the load.

NCLB had some flaws but that wasn't one of them. Before NCLB you were stuck in the poor school district your likely single parent could afford to live in, inevitably doomed to poor education.

iteria 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As always with these things, I'm curious what are the results by state. I wish I could find it again, but I saw some results by state and some of our states scored the same as the top rank nations and some score with 3rd world nations.

I would be interested if this is a nationwide trend or the bad performers are performing even worse. Especially since from my memory, this is mostly a poverty issue. Not a school funding issue, but that per capita income was a good indicator of where that state would score.

ginko 5 days ago | parent [-]

Sure, but you could do the same in pretty much any country.

agentcoops 5 days ago | parent [-]

I’m originally from a US state that currently sits at a 40% literacy rate, but I’ve lived for the last decade in various European countries. I say this only because, even if still anecdotal, I feel like I have a decent basis for comparison. Certainly there are educational disparities from center to periphery and across income brackets everywhere, but I have never lived somewhere that the division was as stark as the US.

France — with all its problems — ensures the same incredibly high standard of curriculum across the country and perhaps most importantly it is actually expected that top university performers who will become researchers teach at high school in the periphery. It’s even a nation-wide competition by discipline (look up the “aggregation”) to obtain these highly sought positions. The idea is something like you teach high school outside Paris while preparing your doctorate and then either return triumphant to the big research institutes or continue teaching in the provinces. Something like this in the US would have immeasurable impact, since probably one of the biggest issues is just convincing well-educated people to teach in rural areas.

bluGill 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

from https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/us-literacy... "California’s 23.1% of adults lacking basic prose literacy skills make California have the lowest literacy rate of 76.9%". I don't know where you are from with a 40% literacy rate, but it isn't any US state.

agentcoops 4 days ago | parent [-]

I had to double-check my source and I realize the error was mine. “40% read at or above an eighth grade level” is the correct description of the state-level data I was looking at, which is distinct from the general metric used for literacy.

This led me into a bit of a rabbit hole trying to understand what in fact the official literacy rate is measured by if it’s so wildly different from - indeed almost double — the portion who can read at an eighth grade level.

The data is actually quite interesting. US National Center for Education statistics administer tests to assess “the ability to understand, evaluate, use, and engage with written texts to participate in society” and an individual falls into one of five categories. Official literacy definition considers above category one (“below basic”), but it is category three that maps approximately onto “eighth grade knowledge” (thus four as high school, five as post-graduate). The most interesting thing I found in the data is exploring that gap between two and three, ie states that have a high attainment of official literacy but then very low rates of the higher levels. California, for example, has the highest percentage of people below level two, but a relatively high percentage at level three and above — obviously I haven’t considered the data for long enough to conclude, but that suggests to me largely a question of immigration/non-English speaking populations. The state I’m from does better than California on attainment of level two, but significantly worse at attainment of three or above.

States where level 3+ > levels 1-2: District of Columbia, Washington, Minnesota, Oregon, Massachusetts, North Dakota / Utah / Colorado.

States with lowest level 3 (ie “eighth grade” equivalent) attainment: Mississippi 35%, Louisiana 35%, West Virginia 37%, New Mexico 39%, Nevada 39%, Alabama 39%, Arkansas 39%, Texas 40%, Tennessee 40%, Kentucky 41%.

TLDR that gap looks like an interesting way to separate issues with a state’s educational system from other questions. Whatever the best measure of literacy may be, it seems like the bar should be a bit higher than just “native speaker of the measured language.”

username332211 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That's by design. France has a cabinet with full control over education in the entire nation. In the United States, education is in the hands of locally elected school boards and the role of the federal and state secretaries of education seems to be mostly limited to dumping money on those people. (And attaching conditions to that money in general seems to be fairly controversial, as the present discussion shows.)

There's no way such a system can produce uniform results.

(The wisdom in forcing voters to elect all sorts of local commissions is another matter entirely. I struggle to see how anyone can make an informed choice, in ballots with 10 or more elected positions, but they seem normal in America.)

chrisco255 5 days ago | parent [-]

The US has always had a state-run or private education system, since even before it was founded as a country. And the U.S. is among the top 10 most educated countries in the world, with over 50% of population having at least a bachelor's degree.

It's pretty simple to vote on local offices: are you happy with the current state of education in your district? Good, keep the incumbents around. Otherwise change out school board members until you achieve the desired results.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/232951/university-degree...

agentcoops 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m from a US state with a 40% adult literacy rate (=above eighth grade reading level). At least there, none of those three things are even close to the root causes. The average school in the US outside of the big cities, especially the farther you get from the coasts, is just not fit for purpose — and funding only seems to ever go down (not that throwing money at the problem alone would solve it).

Honestly — and I’m not being at all utopian/overvaluing the present state of the technology — I think AI is one of the few prospects for even just marginal improvement, especially since it’s accessible by phone. Much as I wish it wasn’t the case, it’s hard to even imagine all the things that would have to change (from funding, to legislation, undoing all the embarrassing “teaching the controversy” curriculum, to say nothing of staffing) for a “non-technical solution.”

bpt3 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To add to your list, in my kids' school district, they spent about 4 - 5 years trying to compensate for kids who didn't do well during COVID by basically slowing every class down to the pace of the kid who struggled the most.

Combine this with an emphasis on single-tracking students and a de-emphasis of grading in general, and it's not surprising to me that scores are declining.

bee_rider 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It started in 2013. If we have to blame technology, social media seems more likely than AI, I guess.

weweersdfsd 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Social media AND smartphones became popular around that time. I think it's the toxic combination that's the worst - easy, low effort dopamine hits that are available everywhere via your phone, whenever you are bored.

username332211 5 days ago | parent [-]

In 2013 social media was still a textual medium, right? There was Vine, but that died pretty quickly, from what I remember.

If social media and smartphones are the problem, I would have expected that results for English proficiency would be steady until the advent of TikTok, right?

pixl97 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

From 2011 to 2013 smartphone adoption in the US went from 35 to 55%, and by 2016 was 75%. While not proof of causation, the correlation is very strong.

Der_Einzige 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Pfft, it started in 2007. Kids couldn’t deal with the orange box, cod4, halo3, all coming out at once.

bee_rider 5 days ago | parent [-]

Actually, it is a good point that this is a lagging indicator.

SoftTalker 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Phones/screens is one I'm not sure about. On the one hand, to use a mobile phone, and social media, and messaging apps, you have to read and write. I certainly spent a lot less time reading and writing messages to my friends in the 1980s than the typical kid does today. We just talked, in person or on an old-fashioned phone call.

On the other hand, it's shallow. Messages are short, and filled with shorthand and emoticons. There's no deep reading or expression of complicated ideas in written form.

vel0city 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

There is also quite a difference between being able to type out and read short messages to friends like "who wants to go to the park today" or read a menu and know if a sandwich has mustard on it or not and being able to have deeper inferential and evaluative understandings of written thoughts and ideas.

I think back to some college peers who even in some more basic classes could clearly read the words of the assigned writings, they couldn't then parse out the deeper meanings behind the assignments. They weren't illiterate, you could ask them to read a passage, and they'd be able to say all the words. You could ask them face value questions about the text, and they'd probably be able to answer most questions right. But any deeper analysis was just beyond them. So, when the professor would ask deeper questions, they'd say "I don't know where he's getting this, the book didn't talk about that at all".

SoftTalker 5 days ago | parent [-]

Agree, but I'm not sure how much worse this is today?

I avoided English Lit in college but thinking back to High School I recognize the "I don't know where he's getting this" reaction. I just rarely engaged with the so-called "classic" stuff we had to read, and like you say I had no trouble reading the words but struggled with deeper meanings or even just getting past the archaic language. And this was in the early 1980s, no chance it was influenced by social media or mobile phones or AI. My parents probably blamed television.

At least we now have AI, where a student could (if motivated) ask questions about the meaning of a passage and get back a synthesis of what other people have written about it. Back then I used Cliffs Notes to do that.

BeetleB 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's a difference between reading and writing, and reading and writing well. I would expect the tests to expect higher proficiency than what is expected in your usual text messages.

Der_Einzige 5 days ago | parent [-]

The quality of most text msgs is higher than what passes for “quality literature” in many lit classrooms.

Texting is unironically a better use of time than reading infinite jest, or gravities rainbow, etc.

fiforpg 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

While you can certainly argue that some texts have more substance to them than these literary works, you cannot deny that most texts have worse prose than the books.

BeetleB 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The quality of most text msgs is higher than what passes for “quality literature” in many lit classrooms.

First: Your HS kids hang out with a different crowd than my HS kids :-)

Second: This is about reading ability (comprehension, etc), not literature. Whether the quality of a text message is superior/inferior to whatever they use in literature classes is irrelevant.

realo 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Hum... "R U OK" is sooo much better than

... “How do you feel, Jake?” “Fine, it doesn’t hurt much.” “Are you all right?” ...

(Hemmingway)

barrenko 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Disturbing % of people just consume tiktok style video and that's it.

Night_Thastus 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This trend of decline significantly predates either COVID or GenAI.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's all of the above and probably more. It might be difficult to find a biggest culprit since they all feed each other. As an example: COVID forced people inside onto their screens and now that people are more screen addicted they use more gen ai or lost the skills to solve things themselves. Gen ai reliance leads to more gen ai use as skills wither.

brightball 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The US has been on a steady decline in global education rankings since the 70s IIRC. Can’t remember where I saw the stat.

yoyohello13 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s decades of defunding schools. I used to work in education and I have never in my career experienced “more” money coming in. It’s always, cuts, cuts, cuts.

That and the culture of anti-intellectualism in the US. I’m completely unsurprised we are falling behind.

m00x 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

NYC, DC, and LA all have over $20k of funding per student, with NYC projecting to hit $42k/student this year and are scoring at 12-56% ELA and Math.

It's definitely not just funding.

jandrewrogers 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How can it be "defunding" while the US spends far more per student than just about any other country in the world?

phil21 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Education spending by all metrics has only gone up - beating inflation nearly every single year since I've been alive.

It might not make it down to teacher salaries or more educators, but the money is absolutely being spent at massive levels.

The best schools where I grew up and around me today have the lowest per-pupil cost. There is basically no correlation between budget spent on education until you get to the extremes on both ends.

treis 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Except for a brief blip around the housing crash inflation adjusted per pupil spending has steadily increased for decades.

terminalshort 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Do you have evidence of this? I have never seen a shred of it even though the claim is repeated endlessly. I think it's a conspiracy theory.

Fade_Dance 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

How about the quality of the education and curriculum itself?

Night_Thastus 5 days ago | parent [-]

The curriculum can be amazing, but it doesn't matter if the students don't care. And frankly, a lot of them don't.

Some of that is cultural, some of that is due to parenting. A lot of parents aren't involved in their kids education. Frankly, a lot of them are barely involved in parenting in general.

pixl97 5 days ago | parent [-]

But I mean, I remember hearing this back in the 80s, so in itself is not a great indicator unless we can see something that would point at why parents stopped caring as much.

Now, if someone came with a headline that said "Parents not involved in childrens education because they've been ragebaited into spending all their time yelling on social media" my biases would tend to lend me to believe it's true, even without sufficient evidence. There are other correlations, like cellphone ownership in the population.

Just having social media itself doesn't seem to be an exact fit, but that tells us nothing about the algorithms that social media was using at the time.

bluGill 5 days ago | parent [-]

It is just as true today as the 1980s - parents have long been the largest indicator of how well kids do in school.

What isn't known is how to get parents to do better. Or lacking that, how to get kids to do better anyway. (there have been some successes, but nothing seems to be repeatable)

pixl97 5 days ago | parent [-]

But that's just punting the original question. Obviously parents aren't getting better, they are getting worse. Why is the question.

Night_Thastus 4 days ago | parent [-]

* Social media (Echo chambers, propaganda bots, algorithmic content designed to get attention and emotion)

* Lowered attention spans

* A general reduction in critical thinking - instead preferring headlines, summaries, and easy answers

* Increased partisanship

* Reduction in third spaces and community connections - people becoming more isolated

* Financial stress

I'd say those are the main points. They apply in almost all developed nations, to varying extents.