Remix.run Logo
moomoo11 5 days ago

How did they manage to brain control millions of people like that? I mean it’s so ludicrous to an outsider.

rtpg 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

In the initial era of the split between North and South Korea, South Korea both was run by a bunch of people who had a history of outright killing leftists, and the United States was involved in similar actions.

The lack of serious offramps to reunification, along with not as huge a delta in quality of life between north and south for a long time (aid from other countries sure helps!), allowed the DPRK to establish itself as its own nation.

Now there is the surveillance state apparatus allowing the DPRK to exist in its current form in perpetuity. And even if tomorrow they showed up and said "let's unify Korea", South Korea (even ignoring all the ideological reasons it might not want to) would likely be unwilling to absorb an extremely poor country and pay for it (see the painful experience of Germany's unification).

There is probably no off ramp that exists unless people are willing to let the elite walk away clean from the situation in one way or another, and it seems hard to imagine such a future.

And if you are a north korean elite and you are allowed to travel to northern china, you will see a place where things are running more smoothly, but you're still going to see places with massive amounts of internal controls and restrictions. So who's offering the upside to some regime change here?

brabel 4 days ago | parent [-]

> see the painful experience of Germany's unification

I had thought that Germans from both sides were overwhelmingly supportive of re-unification, even if it would cause short-term pain??

jonasdegendt 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's my understanding there were plenty of USSR nostalgics in the east given how long it took for the free market to "trickle down" and the east to catch up economically. They never did catch up all the way anyway.

ViktorRay 4 days ago | parent [-]

Today the areas that were previous controlled by East Germany overwhelmingly vote for right wing parties though.

I believe the AfD political party in Germany won significant support in those areas of Germany that were once behind the Iron Curtain.

immibis 4 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, they won control of an entire state and almost won another.

People vote far right because they're fed up with the status quo, and perceive the far right can't be that much worse when everything is already so bad. Politicians who are not far right would do well to take this into account in their politics. Sadly, they don't, and history repeats.

rtpg 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't think that people are like... against unification in principle, but if you are looking at it from the perspective of the State.... lots of pain and money, and at least in the German experience there was plenty of decent state enterprises for West Germany to (glibly) pillage from. People will handwave about North Korean resources, but even those are more or less accessible via China.

And on top of that at the end of the day Germany now has this bloc that votes "the wrong way" in all of its elections. Glib analysis though.

The German split was resolved 35 years ago and is still visible. How much time would a reunified Korea take to equalize itself? If you're a person who cares only about the economics of it all, how long do you think it would take for the payoff of unification to occur? Just seems quite long.

brabel 3 days ago | parent [-]

Would you consider that half of the USA also votes the wrong way too? And the UK? London people tend to think the rest of the country votes wrong as well. There is a divide in most countries, I think Germany is not that different, except for the fact that it actually was split up before!

forgotoldacc 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nearly every authoritarian country starts with people promising good things. A lot also start with rebels fighting against a group that led a massacre. They're underdog groups with popular support.

Then those underdogs take over. They become paranoid about the possibility of being killed themselves, so they repeat the massacres they fought against. A lot of people who supported the new regime think it's just a few remaining enemies being taken out. It won't happen to them. Then the government starts laying out methods to solidify their control. The list of things seen as traitorous and against national interests grows. It becomes a frog in a boiling pot situation. By the time people realize they might be a target, the system is too complicated and widespread to take down alone, and a new generation of youths have been raised knowing only the current system. And to those youths, things are stable. The most terrifying thing to people raised in stability is the idea of losing that stability. So keeping your head down and following the law is much better than absolutely anything else.

And with the absolute control of information that NK has, a significant portion of people really don't even know a better world exists out there. And they're terrified of anyone that even talks about shaking things up.

Ray20 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It looks like a liberal fantasy. The truth is that along the rivers that run on the border with China there are posts with machine gunners every 100 meters. Brainwashing is obviously nearly zero-effective, since they have to resort to machine guns.

immibis 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Not limited to non-Western countries btw. We are also vulnerable.

doikor 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For the first couple decades while it was ahead of South Korea economically (in large part due to support from China/USSR) it was not that bad but during that time the system of absolute control by the Kim family was setup and once it was up it is too late to really do anything due to how absolute/brutal the control is (you say anything wrong and you and your whole extended family end up in a prison/death camp)

Basically people are willing to put up with a lot if their lives are getting better (economic growth). Problem with that is what kind of system of control an authoritarian government can setup in that period of growth.

stogot 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Less of brain control, and more like slaughter of anyone who disagrees or rolls their eyes. Read accounts of those who escaped

ryan-ca 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Empiricism in the face of a totalitarian regime is difficult.

madmaniak 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's funny to say that because we're living in a bubble too.