| ▲ | WillAdams 6 days ago |
| For folks who are not familiar w/ machine shops, the lathe is a fundamental tool in a shop, and is the only tool in a shop which can replicate itself --- there is even a book series which uses this conceit, the "Gingery Books": https://gingerybookstore.com/ where Vol. 1 has one setting up an aluminum casting foundry in one's backyard, and Vol. 2 has one using it to make a lathe which is then used to either improve itself or make a better lathe, then one uses it to make the balance of the tools in a machine shop. |
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| ▲ | jjk166 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| A lathe can't actually replicate itself completely. Specifically, a lathe can only make ways smaller than its own cross slide's stroke. It would also be impossible to make a typical lathe bed on a lathe, though you theoretically could design an unconventional lathe bed that is possible to make on a lathe, even if grossly impractical. The real starting point for machine precision is rubbing 3 granite plates together. |
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| ▲ | michaelt 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You can see a guy following Dave Gingery's instructions to make a lathe bed here [1] And as you say, a granite surface plate is needed. Of course, Gingery's books only claimed to set up a metalworking shop starting "from scrap" and "simple hand methods" and that "it isn’t long before the developing machines are doing much of the work to produce their own parts" [2] Of course, to truly make a lathe from scratch, you must first create the universe. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPGZg45dGXA
[2] https://gingerybookstore.com/MetalWorkingShopFromScrapSeries... | |
| ▲ | WillAdams 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, that's a different book, _Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy_: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262130806/foundations-of-mechan... | | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The three plates is the foundationiof accuracy but no tools are needed to create them. you need a lathe to create a lathe - but a lathe can build itself as by the time you need a lathe in construction you already have enough of a lathe built for that next step. | |
| ▲ | mrob 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Does anybody actually use the three plate method with granite? It was originally done with cast iron, and I thought cast iron was still the standard material. The plates are covered with dye and rubbed together to find the high points, which are then scraped off, instead of being removed by the rubbing directly. Granite is a common material for modern surface plates (and a good one because it doesn't rust and doesn't raise burrs if it's chipped), but I believe these are still made using cast iron reference plates. | | |
| ▲ | UncleEntity 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | From what I understand the three plate method is when you are going from 0 to flat as the errors are averaged out. Doing the "covered with dye and rubbed together to find the high points, which are then scraped off" thing is only if you already have a flat reference surface as you wouldn't have a way to know if the thing you're trying to make flat is really flat. The real question is how do you get the first flat reference surface when all you have are a few somewhat flat things? | | |
| ▲ | KaiserPro 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > The real question is how do you get the first flat reference surface when all you have are a few somewhat flat things? my understanding is the threeplate method allows you to build the reference plate in the first place. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Right. You start with any two plates and make them flat with respect to each other. One will be convex and one concave of course, then you take one of those and your third plate and make those two flat with each other, the switch out again using the third plate and the one not swaped out. Keep repeating until all three are flat with respect with each other - only true flat will have all three flat and the repititions keep getting closer. of course if you have a known flat surface you can save effort by making the new plate flate to the known flat. | | |
| ▲ | KaiserPro 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > of course if you have a known flat surface you can save effort by making the new plate flate to the known flat. All the effort! one of the good things about granite flat references, is that they last for ages, so you can get them reasonably cheaply second hand, if you can find a second hand machine shop specialist. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Even if your second hand plate is no longer flat enough it is still close enough so there is very little effort needed to bring it back to flat. (machine shops often check them on a regular basis and bring them back to flat as needed) |
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| ▲ | bluGill 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hand scraping is done, but for ultimate flat you need to lap three plates not hand scrape. Hand scrapping is not as flat - but the average is close enough and the imperfections are needed anyway for oil so hand scraping is used for bearing surfaces. | | |
| ▲ | ggm 6 days ago | parent [-] | | New Scientist published a reminiscence of somebody in the relatively modern era doing the 3 plate dance. I wish I could find it online. They said it was tedious work. Maudsleys 3 plates are in the London science museum along with Whitworths screw, and some of Marc Brunels stuff. Same room as the meccano differential analyser and the harmonic calculator for tide charts and Babbage bits. Edit: found it - https://archive.is/iyCzB | | |
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| ▲ | nickpinkston 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Also for those who aren't familiar, there's also "hand scraping" for flatness which is more common and used for things like refreshing the "ways" (ie precision linear bearings) on a lathe or other precision machine tool. This is done like the "dye / rub / scrape" method described above, which I believe is still used as it's superior to grinding for these applications. See video below for the process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7w84CrBEE8 |
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| ▲ | tantalor 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oh yeah smart guy? Well how do you make the granite? | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Lathes can certainly make cylinders, and a tube-based lathe bed is not a stretch. A lathe can't replicate its own assembly, of course. It can't seat the spindle in the constraint bearings, for instance. A CNC (without the word lathe) can make most of itself, and possible all. Nope: certainly all, if two of its dimensions fit within its work volume. | | |
| ▲ | SAI_Peregrinus 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Lathes can make cylinders, but not of unlimited length in one setup so they lose some accuracy making cylinders longer than their carriage travel. And their beds are by necessity longer than their carriage travel, since the carriage rides along the bed and isn't infinitely thin. They also can't make things like motor stator laminations, and you definitely need a motor for a replica of a motorized lathe. So lathes can't replicate themselves exactly. Milling machines are also just lathes with a different orientation, an extra travel axis, and a motor optimized for higher speeds & lower torques, it's possible (and reasonably common) to use a mill like a lathe or a lathe like a mill in many cases. So "only machine" part is also a stretch. | | |
| ▲ | HeWhoLurksLate 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | if the purpose is to bootstrap, you could also use something like a leather belt drive off a central shaft, which would require different power sources but ones that a higher percentage of could be made with a lathe | |
| ▲ | vdqtp3 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Milling machines are also just lathes Mills are more limited than lathe - they don't have leadscrews, which are a necessity in the "build yourself" phase. You cannot make arbitrary threads with a milling machine. Thread milling gives some capability in this arena, but that's a CNC process. | | |
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| ▲ | jjk166 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But it can't make cylinders as long as its own guide ways. | | |
| ▲ | ekaryotic 6 days ago | parent [-] | | most lathes have a hole in the chuck to feed the work through. so if the material is ground down by hand to a diameter small enough to fit in the hole then to be turned and then removed and flipped over it's possible. |
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| ▲ | fapjacks 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | make me a truly flat surface | | |
| ▲ | saintfire 6 days ago | parent [-] | | It would be hard to make a human into a truly flat surface. I suppose if you have big enough granite blocks... |
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| ▲ | bluGill 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > and is the only tool in a shop which can replicate itself The real quote is a lathe can build any tool in a machine shop, - including itself. The books your mention describe how to build a lathe with the lathe you are building. (they assume surface plates that the other reply mentioned, but that too is something you can create) |
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| ▲ | ajot 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There's a playlist (xor a 5 minute summary video) of a guy going the Gingery route https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9d6LkFNP1fGjdW2RxqSH... |
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| ▲ | Nextgrid 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not a machinist at all, but how can a lathe replicate parts which don’t have an axis of rotation? |
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| ▲ | bluGill 6 days ago | parent [-] | | A lathe is the only machine you need. Those flat surfaces are easy to create with basic hand tools. (easy - but expect to spend a month if creating a flat surface is your full time job) |
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| ▲ | lemonberry 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thank you so much!! I have been trying to find this book series for years. I I first heard about it on this or another forum ages ago, but couldn't remember enough specifics to find it. |
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| ▲ | WillAdams 6 days ago | parent [-] | | My pleasure! I found a copy of Vol. 2 ages ago and gave it away, and was glad to be able to purchase the updated all-in-one leatherbound edition. That said, there is a certain charm to the originals with their typewritten text and hand-inked illustrations. |
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| ▲ | hashishen 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| most are sold out any kinks to ebooks sold? |
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| ▲ | bluGill 6 days ago | parent [-] | | You can buy the full series. Or check the likes of amazon. The books were first written in 1980, so they are fairly widespread. You can find plenty of youtube videos of people trying to make them, and once in a while forums dedicated to people making them (and suggested upgrades). They are not the best machine cools you can get/make, but they are serious tools and better than most DIY attempts (though the video here is better than most DIY attempts I've seen) |
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| ▲ | echelon_musk 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| s/conceit/concept/ |
