| ▲ | kspacewalk2 a day ago |
| Cities in Europe and Asia that are actually healthy, and have rejected car culture, don't have these tunnel thingies. Instead of moving pedestrian traffic away from streets, they improve their streets to make them friendly to pedestrians. The idea that climate issues necessitate this kind of divorce from the outdoors would be a strange concept indeed to people in Barcelona and Helsinki alike. This is in fact a classic, 80s-90s North American car-infested big city band-aid. Leave the streets for the cars, leave the tiny sidewalks for the homeless and the trash, connect office buildings and plazas with pathways so the nine-to-fives can drive or subway in, go for their lunch or whatever, then drive/subway out without meeting the poors (because who else lives downtown anyway?) Et voila! Who needs to make downtowns actually liveable after all. |
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| ▲ | minwcnt5 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I have a slightly different take than others on this: I think the main contributor is the fact Toronto's financial district is extremely dense compared to most if not all European cities, and serviced by a highly trafficked subway line that loops around it. Many of the large office skyscrapers are built right on top of the subway, and so they naturally have a public underground connection, and usually it's a mini-mall with a food court and amenities for the office workers. Because of downtown's density these kind of just merged together into the larger PATH network. The weather is of course also a factor. It's just incredibly convenient in the winter, or even in the summer when it's muggy out, for office workers. You just hop onto the elevator during your lunch or coffee break, wearing your office clothes, no need to throw on a jacket or bring an umbrella or anything. It's just an extension of your office building basically. Toronto ALSO has healthy commercial streets all over the place that you access from street level and that DON'T connect to these tunnels. It's a very large city. The PATH tunnels are just one district. |
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| ▲ | binsbins 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Rebuttal to your post:
1. Many Asian cities have elevated pedestrian walkway systems.
2. Helsinki has underground pedestrian malls/tunnels.
3. Toronto's first PATH pedestrian tunnel was built before the post WW2 car culture explosion.
4. Toronto's winter cycling volumes are less than 10% that of the summer cycling volumes. Real statistics say that winter weather greatly affects people's decision on transportation mode. I have used a couple pedestrian tunnel/bridge networks extensively in frosty Canadian winter climates, I really appreciate them plus I think they are a fun way to get from place to place - being able to travel at a different layer than street-level feels refreshing/novel! |
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| ▲ | Frieren 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | I prefer to have better designed cities and to use of tunnels/walkways when there is no better alternative. In Asia, the walkways usually exist for wide roads that are in themselves not very friendly for the eyes, nor ears. The newest parts of Shenzhen are bare deserts with wide roads with cars and emptied of people. Their tunnels are full of restaurants, shopping malls and young people enjoying themselves. But all that is illuminated by artificial light. Not the worst kind of city, but so much worse than to have all people and activity at surface level like Paris or London. I agree, thou, that to have tunnels is an advantage during winter for cold countries. But as soon as the sun shines, I want to be outside getting as much sun and light as possible. Tunnels should not be a substitute to walkable cities but they can be a great addition. |
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| ▲ | bobthepanda 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is not true in Asia. In particular, major Japanese cities, Seoul, and Hong Kong are quite famous for extensive elevated and underground pedestrian networks. The major difference is that density is so high in these areas that they do not run into the problems encountered when implementing in North America, namely that a second level makes the street level dead. |
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| ▲ | ygouzerh 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Indeed! It's as well quite needed here in Asia for still being able to walk even when the temperature is either too high (e.g Hong Kong) or too low (e.g Seoul in winter), without having to use cars all the time. |
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| ▲ | tomjakubowski a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Downtown LA's elevated pedestrian plazas on Bunker Hill, as depicted in the movie Her, are a great example of this. Office workers drive in, park in an underground garage below a skyscraper, take the elevator up to work, and walk around a multi-block radius to grab lunch, all without ever stepping foot on a city street. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | The Shinagawa District (where my company's headquarters were, in Tokyo) has a big raised district, connecting a bunch of skyscrapers, stores, and even a major train station. I suspect that there are several others (like Shinjuku), but I didn't really spend much time, in those areas (Tokyo is really big). | | |
| ▲ | SapporoChris 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Shinjuku underground walkways are vast enough to connect to Nishi-Shinjuku, Seibu-Shinjuku and Tochomae stations. Of course the Tokyo Metropolitan Government Building can be walked to underground from Shinjuku station. |
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| ▲ | Bratmon 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As someone from the Great Lakes region, watching Californians try to speculate about why Great Lakes cities have tunnels or elevated walkways but major Asian or European cities don't is hilarious. Come visit us in January and learn why for yourself ;) |
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| ▲ | gamblor956 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It regularly gets below zero in Chicago and Toronto. Europe is generally warmer than Canada and the northern U.S. Without these underground tunnels, there would be no pedestrians during months of the year, and no amount of "improving their streets" would change that. |
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| ▲ | jltsiren 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Winters in Chicago and Toronto look about the same as in Helsinki. That's mild enough that the colder days are rarely an issue for pedestrians, assuming that they are willing to dress for the weather. The warmer winter days, with temperatures oscillating around freezing, are a bigger issue. Sidewalks can become dangerous without constant maintenance, as melting and freezing snow creates slippery surfaces and snow and ice fall off roofs. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is the first I'm hearing that cold days in Chicago are rarely an issue for pedestrians. Here's Brian Fitzpatrick: https://therealfitz.medium.com/how-i-learned-to-stop-worryin... (I don't do even 1/4 of this, but then, I would almost never walk any real distance during a Chicago winter.) | | |
| ▲ | jltsiren 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm from Helsinki, where winters are longer and a bit colder than in Chicago, but we get less snow. My main takeaway from that article was that Chicagoans are more willing to tolerate disruptions due to weather. In Finland, people are generally expected to go to work/school even during a blizzard. And some then complain that their morning commute took longer than usual, because snowplows could not be everywhere at once. | | |
| ▲ | Scoundreller 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s taken quite a few public transit infrastructure improvements to make Toronto’s more reliable in snowfall. Trams used relatively unreliable trolley poles instead of pantographs until ~10 years ago. Most of the tram network “street runs”, so slow automobile traffic slows them down. Bicycle lanes become snow dumps when it snows a lot. There has at least been a more recent push to clear them of snow somewhat regularly at least instead of abandoning them entirely for maintenance. The metro/subway still runs largely above-ground. Lots of gas/electric train switch heaters installed on the regional train network but it can still fall apart in a snowstorm. | |
| ▲ | esseph 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Interesting! I lived in Alaska for several years, and schools would get called off if it was snowing heavily. |
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| ▲ | hamdingers 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are still pedestrians in Toronto when the weather is below zero despite the existence of the tunnels. I've been one of them many times. |
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| ▲ | FredPret a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The idea that climate issues necessitate this kind of divorce from the outdoors would be a strange concept indeed to people in Barcelona and Helsinki alike. Try going for a walk outside in downtown Toronto on both the hottest and coldest days. If you're not in good health and appropriately dressed, you could suffer heatstroke on the hot day and simply die on the cold day. > the poors (because who else lives downtown anyway? You should talk about what you know instead of trying to come up with ways to hate something more than you already do. |
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| ▲ | kspacewalk2 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | >Try going for a walk outside in downtown Toronto on both the hottest and coldest days. I've done so many times on both the hottest and the coldest days, in Toronto. I've also been poor in Toronto and lived downtown, so you're right! Let's stick to what I know. It's always funny to read these wild exaggerations about our climate, and I suspect it's the same in other parts of the world. Yes, you could very occasionally suffer heatstroke or die of cold if you venture outside. Such are the generally defined, weather-related dangers of leaving your house. Somehow the millions of people who live in Toronto and move about downtown without patronizing the half-deserted and confusing PATH maze manage just fine. I encourage you to actually visit downtown Toronto or talk to someone who lives there to see just how they somehow manage to barely eke out a subsistence living for the 9 months of the year that the Damocles' sword of Extreme Weather sort of hangs menacingly over them. | | |
| ▲ | FredPret a day ago | parent [-] | | Lived in various spots in downtown TO for nearly a decade. The climate alone easily justifies building pedestrian tunnels. You come across as one of those car-hating fanatics who'll zero in on literally anything about North American cities, blaming everything you don't like on Evil Car Culture. I've lived in Europe and in North America, in both places with and without a car. Car + N.A. is the most convenient and comfortable combination, by a very long way, even if you're stuck in a condo in the gridlocked downtown Toronto as I was. | | |
| ▲ | andy99 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't know if this is the right place to comment but I agree with you and noticed a lot of people are equating "survivable" cold/hot with not needing tunnels. In a city, most people are working in office towers and not outfitting themselves for anything but the most moderate weather, so it's nice to have tunnels that you can comfortably navigate to go to lunch and meetings and whatnot without bundling up. Nobody disagrees it's possible to walk around outside in Toronto winter and it's not that cold, but it's a hell of a lot nicer getting to stay inside when possible. | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >The climate alone easily justifies building pedestrian tunnels. Then why are they so deserted most of the time? >You come across as one of those car-hating fanatics who'll zero in on literally anything about North American cities, blaming everything you don't like on Evil Car Culture. Cool story, not sure who it applies to. I live in mid-size Canadian city in suburbia now, and drive a car quite often (though I do commute to work by bike). >Car + N.A. is the most convenient and comfortable combination, by a very long way, even if you're stuck in a condo in the gridlocked downtown Toronto as I was. That's great that you have this highly subjective opinion, and you should have the option of living that lifestyle. Those who don't want to should not be treated as second class citizens and should have the freedom to choose a comfortable, car-free or car-lite lifestyle too. That's not possible or logistically very difficult in almost all North American cities. The walkways like PATH are absolutely a byproduct of the way our downtowns (used to, and to some extent still do) cater to the drive-in nine-to-fivers, and don't put nearly enough thought or money into making streets more pleasant and walkable in all seasons. You can think of it as good or bad, but I see little reason to exaggerate so comically about the deadly dangers of Scary Toronto Winters, and how they necessitate separating oneself from the outdoors at all costs. The reason our downtowns suck so much to walk through in wintertime is not the weather per se, but choices and priorities we make about infrastructure and maintenance. If you really have lived in Europe, particularly parts of Europe that have actual winters with snow, you'll know exactly what I mean. | | |
| ▲ | Kranar 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Then why are they so deserted most of the time? What general age range are you? I ask because before COVID, The PATH in Toronto was absolutely packed and incredibly busy. Nowadays it's true that the PATH has far fewer pedestrians but that's because of people working from home, a situation which is likely to come to an end by the end of next year with most of the financial district mandating a return to office. >You can think of it as good or bad, but I see little reason to exaggerate so comically about the deadly dangers of Scary Toronto Winters, and how they necessitate separating oneself from the outdoors at all costs. There are quantifiable metrics about extreme weather conditions in Toronto that are tracked by the City of Toronto's Public Health Unit, so we don't need to speculate about this issue: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/re... For various reasons, the number of extreme cold weather alerts, defined as periods where the temperature drops to below 30 degrees Celcius, has increased quite significantly in the past 20 years with 2022 having a record of 49 days. Considering winter is only 90 days a year, having more than half of those days resulting in extreme weather alerts absolutely qualifies as unsuitable for outdoor pedestrian travel. | | |
| ▲ | Aeolun 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Can you still quantify something as ‘extreme’ weather if more than 50% of the days you are counting are such? Maybe we should instead switch around to quantifying the mild days xD |
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| ▲ | FredPret 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Here's a comparison of Toronto and a handful of random not-Southern European cities that came to mind. For interest's sake, all these are far north of Toronto, which is in line with Marseille! https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/19863~75981~45062~47913~5... Toronto is up there in summer, and lowest in winter, and at high humidity. Add in high winds coming in over an icy Lake Ontario and I'd rather buy my groceries fully indoors. I agree about the lack of snow, but there's still just enough to make that brown slush, which is worse for walking in. My original point - perhaps overly aggressively stated - comes down to this: the people who vote and pay taxes also like their cars, and this is OK. Building a pedestrian tunnel in Toronto should be very uncontroversial. Infrastructure decisions have to be made, and there are many upsides to widespread car ownership. - no crazies yelling at you, or at least not within stabbing range of you - you pick your soundscape - you pick your temperature - lower average transit time (I don't have a stat for this one, but I started off taking the TTC (Toronto Transit) and then bought a car. Despite heavy traffic, my travel time literally halved. - suddenly big box stores like Costco make more sense, which makes the entire economy more efficient Of course there are downsides. But everything is a tradeoff. |
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| ▲ | hamdingers 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > If you're not [...] appropriately dressed One interesting but unfortunate second order impact of car dependence is people forgetting en masse (or never learning!) how to dress appropriately for the city they live in. |
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| ▲ | mattkrause a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Eh... Montreal is a lot less temperate (in both directions!) than Barcelona and Helsinki. Having a way to get out of ±35º weather really does make the city more livable. |
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| ▲ | kspacewalk2 a day ago | parent [-] | | Okay, Madrid and Oulu are a lot less temperate in one direction than Montreal. There's nothing particularly scary or extreme about the climate of any major North American city. All weather-related excuses why those cities cannot be made less car-dependent are, to put simply, fucking bullshit excuses and just that. | | |
| ▲ | cgh a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Various cities in Canada regularly see temperatures way below zero. For example, Edmonton’s mean daily minimum is below zero for seven months a year. It has hit lows of -50°. And let us not speak of Winterpeg, er Winnipeg. Toronto != Canada | | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | And even those cities have counterparts in Europe where people take transit and bike way more often, apparently unaware of this common excuse that "our weather doesn't allow for it". | | |
| ▲ | throawaywpg 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's no counterpart for Winnipeg in Europe. The comparable are Novosibirsk and Ulan Bataar. |
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| ▲ | potato3732842 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not that they're extreme or scary. It's that it's shitty to tolerate them and we can so readily afford better to the point where you will be looked at like a weirdo if you want to show up at work drenched in sweat because it was 88degrees freedom when you walked to work in the morning. | | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You'll likely break a sweat at 31 degrees C (had to look it up), but if you're drenched in sweat you should consider exercising more. But sure, it's not for everyone. It's great to have practical transportation choices though. Most of North America has none, it's car or stay home. | | |
| ▲ | esseph 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | If you're not sweating when it's 85F-125F and 60%+ humidity, you should probably drink water. | | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | 125F and 60%+ humidity? Are we talking Indian heat wave of the century type of situation now or what? |
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| ▲ | rbjorklin a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > we can so readily afford better Can we really? All the reporting on climate change definitely has me thinking otherwise. There are options more respectful to our planet than digging tunnels like for example planting trees to help mediate temperatures. |
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| ▲ | esseph 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You never lived in Las Vegas, Phoenix, or Fairbanks, huh? | |
| ▲ | gamblor956 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's nothing particularly scary or extreme about the climate of any major North American city. Except for sub-zero temperatures. And regular 100+ degree temperatures. And tornadoes. And derechos. And hurricanes. And a bunch of other weather phenomena that doesn't happen regularly in Europe. All weather-related excuses why those cities cannot be made less car-dependent are, to put simply, fucking bullshit excuses and just that. Spoken like someone who doesn't understand how weather, people, or cities work. | | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are we using derechos and tornadoes as excuses for car dependence? Well, that's something new if nothing else. There are dozens and dozens of cities, big medium and even small, all over Europe, which have some combination of sub-zero temperatures, regular 100+ degree temperatures, lots of snow, lots of rain, lots of hills, and every other imaginable geography-related carbrains excuse in existence in North America. They bike, walk and take transit all the same. All bullshit excuses, all demonstrably so. The reason North America is car dependent is by conscious choice and by design, and absolutely nothing else whatsoever. | | |
| ▲ | esseph 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | US is very big. Lots of places to go. Need a car to get around, can't fly everywhere. Trains don't go everywhere, because it doesn't make economic sense. Hm. Stuck with cars. | | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | US has tons of very dense areas with lots of places that can be easily reached by modern public transit, should political priorities ever change. Trains don't go everywhere because of a conscious, deliberate and top-down (centrally planned) choice to invest in car infrastructure. Trains of course used to go everywhere in North America, and were economically viable just fine, until cars were artificially made more economically viable. Stuck with cars due to conscious choices of past generations, unsuccessfully looking for external excuses ever since. | | |
| ▲ | esseph an hour ago | parent [-] | | There are 19,500 incorporated towns in the United States. 76% of those have less than 5,000 people. |
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| ▲ | gamblor956 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are dozens and dozens of cities, big medium and even small, all over Europe, which have some combination of sub-zero temperatures, regular 100+ degree temperatures Name even one. You won't be able to, because unless the Atlantic currents change, the European climate simply doesn't have the same extremes as the U.S. does. To put it bluntly: if any European city had extremes from sub-zero to plus-100 on a regular basis, it would be global news. OTOH, Most of the U.S. Northeast and Midwest experiences this every year. You're also overstating the degree to which people walk in Europe, by a lot. Yes, people walk and take public transit. But that's because they can't afford a car. And their economic counterparts in the U.S. similarly bike, walk, or take public transit. | | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Madrid has heat waves like Toronto has never seen, Oulu has tons of snowy winters that would cause Toronto to Call In The Army (Torontonians will get the reference), Porto and Lisbon have lots of hills, etc. etc. All these cities have modern, 21st century, first-world public transit appropriate for their size. They have sidewalks that don't make people not currently inside a car feel like second-class citizens. They have cycling infrastructure and they even maintain it in winter! Toronto, and essentially all other big North American cities, don't have these things, or are currently making baby steps toward getting them. (Even NY's system is neglected for decades and simply riding on the coattails of past decisions made when the city was run by adults). What possible difference does it make that Toronto might have both weather extremes if there are so many examples of better-designed and better-run cities successfully dealing with any of them? Just intellectually lazy excuses. >Yes, people walk and take public transit. But that's because they can't afford a car. No, they very often do it by choice. You'd see people making that choice in the US too, but they can't. Their choice is car or stay the fuck home. Millions of Americans also can't afford a car, but they buy one anyway because they can't get to work in any other way. They are forced to pay through the nose (relative to their income) for one, whereas in Europe they'd be far more likely to have a viable public transit option. By viable I mean frequent, convenient and comfortable. There are probably a dozen such systems in North America, if not fewer, and even those systems don't reach most of the population of their city. NY, Montreal and Toronto are the partial exceptions, and Toronto only because of the best bus system in North America. >And their economic counterparts in the U.S. similarly bike, walk, or take public transit. You'd need a moderate to severe death wish to routinely walk or bike outside your little bubble of a subdivision in the majority of North American suburbs. Much worse in the US, but true of Canada as well. Downtowns are every bit as bad. As soon as you hit a stroad [0], you start re-evaluating your life choices. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad |
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