| ▲ | jmull 4 days ago |
| I think Apple should mostly be allowed to run as crappy an App Store as they want. But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. (Ground rules all app stored would have to follow based on technical, security, and legal concerns would be fine too, IMO.) Of course Apple would never go for that, so we'll end up with whatever mess legal processes can wring out of them. |
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| ▲ | matheusmoreira 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. This the answer. The app store monopoly doesn't really matter, the real tyranny is needing Apple's cryptographic blessing to run software on our own computers. This should be literally illegal. Restore our computer freedom and their app store rent seeking becomes irrelevant. |
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| ▲ | bloomca 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not just about that. I am sure if the court would force them to allow sideloading, they'll make sure to never promote your app if you decide to offer both options to the users. | | |
| ▲ | para_parolu 4 days ago | parent [-] | | And that’s fair. Apple doesn’t have to provide services to businesses | | |
| ▲ | Nevermark 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Punishing developers for not exclusively using their App Store would be clearly uncompetitive. If they have to allow other stores, then they are not going to be allowed to punish developers for using them. (Assuming the lowest bar possible in anti-competitive resolution follow through.) | |
| ▲ | earthnail 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not until alternative stores become competitive. Realistically they have such a monopoly thar you end up in a chiclen and egg situation. Their monopoly is so large that noone wants to distribute via small alt stores, meaning alt stores never get large. | | |
| ▲ | anilgulecha 4 days ago | parent [-] | | A chicken and egg problem is highly unlikely. Here's a few probable situations: 1) A fdroid equivalent pops up, which them becomes a collection of fantastic open source apps, and soon develops a strong user base. 2) Google launches play store for iPhone, which will on day 1 get millions of users. 3) Meta launches metaStore, which so the only way to get Facebook, threads, Instagram and WhatsApp. This becomes the fastest growing store in a matter of a week. One may personally not like this world - but imo it's a better world than the one we have - personally for (1) to exist. | | |
| ▲ | qwytw 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > 3) Meta launches metaStore, which so the only way to get Facebook, threads, Instagram and WhatsApp. This becomes the fastest growing store in a matter of a week. Why? They don't do this on Android. At then end of the day the number of active users would fall if they do this. That's unavoidable. So what incentives do they have to not distribute on the App Store? It's not like (unlike in Epic's case) Apple is requiring Facebook to hand over 30% of its revenue. fdroid is of course great. Extremely niche and not that significant, though. > Google launches play store for iPhone, which will on day 1 get millions of users. Amazon tried that on Android. Of course I would expect Google to do much better but that doesn't mean a lot. | | |
| ▲ | jen20 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Why? They don't do this on Android. So they can fuck their users in ways not currently permitted. |
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| ▲ | close04 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | On #3, Meta could have done it for Android and I don't think they did. Actually if Android is a god estimation of how it looks like with 3rd party stores, it won't be super disruptive. Unless the iOS market is so lucrative it will garner far more interest. | | |
| ▲ | spect88 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Actually if Android is a god estimation of how it looks like with 3rd party stores, it won't be super disruptive. Google Play has fewer restrictions though.
Apple doesn't even allow alternative browser engines. Until last year they didn't allow any emulators. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Meta launches metaStore, which so the only way to get Facebook, threads, Instagram and WhatsApp Would note the trade off: this store will be a bastion of tracking, possibly with Meta requiring its bugs be installed for inclusion. | | |
| ▲ | anilgulecha 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Highly probable. This will rightly push Apple in the right direction - to bring the right OS controls at the operating system level / store API level, and not leave things up to apps. This is a better world, despite short term issues with metaStore. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > bring the right OS controls at the operating system level / store API level, and not leave things up to apps This will almost certainly be litigated. We also haven’t broached national laws mandating a government-controlled App Store. (Would expect this to emerge in right-wing Europe or India first.) |
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| ▲ | crossroadsguy 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | As long as they clearly give the option, at the time of first setup - or an upgrade, to select which app store becomes default; and make it very easy to change default app store later, just like default browser, default search engine et cetera. But they must not be allowed to disallow for the reason that "you are on another app store, we don't like you, go away!". Yup, it's then fair and they can keep the banner in their App Store that screams at font size 38 "This Journal App Is Da Best", "No Other Note App Has Been Made Greater Than This One". |
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| ▲ | Cthulhu_ 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's a tradeoff. You may have the knowledge and risk awareness to install anything, circumvent protections like you still can on MacOS, but the vast majority does not and should not have that power; this led to huge botnets during the Windows XP era when many internet connections were first set up. They overcompensated with Vista, asking permissions for everything so people developed a kneejerk "just hit accept". The iPhone came out not long after, with a safety by default - which invariably meant restricting what a user can and cannot do and install on their system. I think it's been a net positive overall. The percentage of people that want to do and install more with it is small. | | |
| ▲ | ndriscoll 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem with Windows XP was that at the time you plugged it into your modem directly (or the computer contained the modem if it was dialup) with no firewall, and it would get exploited in seconds without any user interaction through some default Microsoft background service. Wifi routers were probably a much larger impact than any operating system changes. Especially anything user facing. It's also why clickbait silliness aside, running windows XP isn't actually that likely to run into issues today. | |
| ▲ | zb3 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's a tradeoff. You may have the knowledge and risk awareness [...] but the vast majority does not and should not have that power But that power is not more dangerous than having guns, right?
So.. while I can apply for a gun license, I can't apply for an unrestricted computing license, so something is wrong here, don't you think? Unless you believe guns are less dangerous. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > But that power is not more dangerous than having guns, right? It actually is. Free computers are intolerably subversive. They can literally wipe out entire sectors of the economy just by copying artificially scarce things. They can defeat police, judges, militaries, governments by democratizing access to strong cryprography. They want to control our computers at all costs. We must resist. Computers are too important for us to allow them to be controlled and limited. | | |
| ▲ | kjkjadksj 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I can shoot an executive and it would tank the stock far more than anything I could do with a computer. |
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| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > > But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. The web. Without scare walls or hidden "enable downloads" menu settings. And apps should no longer have to use first party payment rails, first party authentication/sign in rails, or be forced to jump through review or upgrade hoops. | | |
| ▲ | c0balt 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The web. Without scare walls or hidden "enable downloads" menu settings. I'm not too sure about that, for non-technical users the warnings before installing an APK on Android are very likely a good thing. There's a lot of malware out there and, similar to running a downloaded Exe on Windows, you should at least explicitly confirm it's execution. | | |
| ▲ | nchmy 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The warnings arent needed on the web, because it's vastly more secure, flexible, etc.. Steve Jobs even coined the PWA concept before going the fiefdom route |
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| ▲ | labcomputer 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t know whether to feel happy or sad for you. Happy because you have nobody in your life in a vulnerable position to be taken advantage of the inevitable malware that will be installed on their device as a result of your wish. Or sad because those people are most likely to be grandparents or elderly aunts and uncles. Perhaps you never even got to know them. | | |
| ▲ | tekkk 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | What a stupid argument. Maybe grandpas and grandmas should get a different phone then, like a Doro, and stop bringing the rest of us down. And it doesn't even hold water as my mother has been scammed by legitimate App Store apps that have charged extra-fees just because they could. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Maybe grandpas and grandmas should get a different phone then, like a Doro They did, they got an iPhone. > my mother has been scammed by legitimate App Store apps that have charged extra-fees just because they could. Did it empty her bank balance by abusing the private NFC payment APIs that Apple are being ordered to open up? Did it cryptolock all her files? Did it activate the camera and mic to spy on her for blackmail? These are things that we need to worry about with random things we download on desktop these days. It's not 2007 any more, I have an entire spare computer for untrusted software. | | |
| ▲ | tekkk 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't want to get into politics but dont you think it's funny when you can purchase assault rifles, made for killing people, yet we are so afraid of having the poor individuals in control of their own phones. Or farming equipment - the list seems to keep growing. It's just corporate propaganda that all hell would break loose, you could just offer installing baby mode at Apple physical store that can only be removed at said places. Yeah some people would still climb the fence and touch the power lines but look, can we save them all? Should we? In this world of merciless exploitation, wouldnt it be just fair we stopped pretending it never was about anything else but money? | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > I don't want to get into politics but dont you think it's funny when you can purchase assault rifles, made for killing people I'm British by birth, living in Berlin. We definitely think Americans are a bit "funny", in the not-at-all-funny sense of the word, about guns. > It's just corporate propaganda that all hell would break loose, you could just offer installing baby mode at Apple physical store that can only be removed at said places. Thing is, with computers, we've had decades of watching malware infect, destroy, corrupt, ransom, and blackmail. It's still happening, even. And we even have a way to get past "baby mode" restrictions: be a developer. But guess what? Developers also face supply chain attacks, because malware is everywhere. I do miss the olden days when I didn't need to care. A mac online in 2009 was worry-free. |
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| ▲ | ohdeargodno 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Did it empty her bank balance by abusing the private NFC payment APIs that Apple are being ordered to open up? NFC payment APIs have been open on Android for decades and no such thing of the sort has ever happened. You cannot magically conjure up a payment from Apple Pay to <X> without user involvement and confirmation. >Did it cryptolock all her files? Apps do not have write access to all your files. >Did it activate the camera and mic to spy on her for blackmail? Every mobile device now has a giant notification saying that the device is using the microphone or recording video. The disingenuous "having an open app store/not being locked in the walled garden is a security risk" is getting tiring, especially when it's basically all lies now. Unless your argument is that Apple is too incompetent to write APIs properly, in which case I wonder why you think that said APIs being private would prevent anything. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > NFC payment APIs have been open on Android for decades and no such thing of the sort has ever happened. Google is also getting legal action for monopoly abuse of their app store, so what's possible today on Android is not sufficient to say what's safe or not. Despite this, they're also already facing legal
action for sharing too much data from Google Wallet. Fail on all directions at the same time. > Apps do not have write access to all your files. > Every mobile device now has a giant notification saying that the device is using the microphone or recording video. And this can't be circumvented ever, even when private APIs are no longer vetted? And none of the voices describing downloads warnings as "scare screens" aren't making the same demand on this? > The disingenuous "having an open app store/not being locked in the walled garden is a security risk" is getting tiring, especially when it's basically all lies now. Unless your argument is that Apple is too incompetent to write APIs properly, in which case I wonder why you think that said APIs being private would prevent anything. The disingenuous "force platforms to be open, there's no security risk" position was tiring decades ago when the iPhone was brand new, especially when it was obviously lies even then. Apple obviously isn't magically competent enough to write APIs properly, they had "goto fail" and all the jailbreaks we've seen in so many versions of iOS were specifically some random doc that users could install that included a way to escalate privileges, and even without that evidence we've also got access to the black market prices for zero-day exploits that for a long time showed they're cheaper than Android, and the obvious reason why this prevents "anything" is that "anything" is a massive subset of "everything". |
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| ▲ | labcomputer 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or maybe the iPhone should be that phone and those who don’t like the closed ecosystem should get something else? Why would buy a phone that doesn’t work the way you like when alternatives exist? | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Because we want the iPhone on our terms. | | |
| ▲ | jen20 4 days ago | parent [-] | | So? I want it on my terms, which are mutually exclusive to yours. Who wins? | | |
| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You can choose not to download anything. We're asking to rewire the economics and regulatory framework, not change how you personally use your phone. I don't care how you use your phone. I care how the world works. | | |
| ▲ | jen20 4 days ago | parent [-] | | What you are proposing is the balkanization of software delivery. I indeed choose not to download software from Facebook and friends, but it’s quite likely others will need to as it will become the only way to get their software. At that point: tracking out the ass. | | |
| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent [-] | | "Balkanization" is the wrong way to view this. This is waking up the regulatory arm of the government that has been asleep at the wheel. And it should have been done over a decade ago. The better analogy is a forest fire. We're clearing up the overgrowth (ossification, unfair taxation, and unfair control) and creating room for new life to start and flourish. > I indeed choose not to download software from Facebook and friends, but it’s quite likely others will need to as it will become the only way to get their software. At that point: tracking out the ass. Don't like a negative externality? Tax and regulate it. It's what Europe does. And it's what we're good at doing in every industry except for the software industry. We need to stretch those muscles and get back into the habit of doing it. We should pass regulations on giant social media companies as well. But in a world where we have no software freedoms and where certain software tracks us, having software freedoms is the more important cause and it's where we must start our battle. You don't need to use Facebook, but you need to use a smartphone. New social media apps are started all the time (TikTok, Tea, etc.) but smartphones are trillion dollar moats. Our smartphones are our gateway to digital life. They need to be liberated from Apple and Google. Mobile computing belongs to all of us. | | |
| ▲ | jen20 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > "Balkanization" is the wrong way to view this. It's a perfectly valid way to view it. Forest fire might be another valid way to view it, but is different. Both are equally valid, and represent different views of what ideal is. > Tax and regulate it. It's what Europe does. I am European. Nice try though. > We need to stretch those muscles and get back into the habit of doing it. I don't disagree. Start there then. Make it so that tracking me incurs such a heavy penalty payable to me personally that it is not worthwhile. Then go after the distribution mechanisms that allow someone to live a relatively tracking-free life without having to be an uber-nerd to make it reality. > Mobile computing belongs to all of us. There are plenty of platforms. What you are saying is it belongs to the people who want it to be a certain way with particular negative outcomes for many people. I want it to be a different way with negative outcomes that affect me less. |
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| ▲ | tliltocatl 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yet another "think of the children", except now it's think of the elderly. We CAN NOT make the world safe for everyone without also making it a total crapsack for everyone. It's simply not an option that exists. |
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| ▲ | dangus 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You say “they would never go for this” but they do it on the Mac. It’s funny how they are their own counter example. They have no leg to stand on. |
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| ▲ | rootusrootus 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think the Mac is a great counter example. It started as a fully open platform, so the expectations are different. The iPhone was never anything other than an appliance, Apple is not trying to turn an open garden into a walled one, because it started that way. | | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure, in theory. But what really happened is that apple kept a stranglehold on what more and more became a general computing device. And they've done enough anti-compettive maneuvers to have the EU make them open up. I wouldn't be surprised if the US eventually comes to a similar decision. Apple may not be as blatant about it as the other big tech, but I hope it's not contentious to say that all three big companies needs a round of anti-trust overhaul. | |
| ▲ | jterrys 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think the problem is that the app store is perceived as a general computing platform compared to what it was originally birthed from: Built in immutable applications on a mobile phone. |
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| ▲ | epohs 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Counter example to what? Why should they not be able to run both a relatively open ecosystem and a mostly closed one? I don’t think Apple is arguing that it is impossible to allow more open ways to install apps on iPhones. I think they’re saying that they don’t want to, and that they shouldn’t have to. | | |
| ▲ | jchw 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Counter example to what? Why should they not be able to run both a relatively open ecosystem and a mostly closed one? > I don’t think Apple is arguing that it is impossible to allow more open ways to install apps on iPhones. I think they’re saying that they don’t want to, and that they shouldn’t have to. Apple volunteers the position that they couldn't possibly open the iOS ecosystem themselves, not just that they don't want to, making some very amusing claims in the process.[1] They also don't want to, but the more you dig into possible "whys", you get into a lot of troubling realities quickly. Epic Games, on the other hand, is arguing that they actually should have to, at least to some extent. There are actually a lot of reasons why Apple's App Store practices might violate the law, and to my understanding, Epic Games is alleging that Apple's App Store practices constitute "illegal tying" whereby Apple unlawfully ties its payment processing service with its app distribution. That's far from the only potential legal issue that the App Store could face just based on current, existing law. (Note: I am not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt; but nothing I am saying is too original or groundbreaking.) And of course, it's always worth remembering that what's legal today can be regulated tomorrow. I don't really believe lawmakers or the general public really have had enough time to take a look at the impact that Apple/Google app stores have had on the software market and decide if these practices should be legal. The EU seems to think they shouldn't, and while I don't agree with the EU on everything, I tend to agree. [1]: https://observer.com/2021/05/even-craig-federighi-apples-hea... | |
| ▲ | jajko 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Luckily corporate greed it not the only thing that matters in this world. If they want to sell in half a billion rich market of EU, they will soon need to start behaving more morally. If not they can fuck off, write off 20-30% of company value and EU will have better products, (almost) everybody wins. Given how low morally they are, the room for improvement is massive and easy to move into. As you write, they didn't do it so far because they were not forced, and waiting for some good moral behavior 'just because it would be nice from them' is rather dumb. | |
| ▲ | kmeisthax 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | jjtheblunt 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's possible they'll allow this on iOS once finer granularity logging of battery usage is pervasive, how fine is anyone's guess, so as to track down what apps, and of whatever provenance, degrade some kpi like user impression of battery life. | | |
| ▲ | mrandish 4 days ago | parent [-] | | This is about money not battery life. Apple makes billions of dollars in highly profitable revenue by cryptographically blocking users from controlling their own devices. | | |
| ▲ | jjtheblunt 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You could be right. That said, i was an engineer for several years in Apple and primary internal concerns were battery life and its influence on user experience; the removal of Flash viability, favoring html5, is an example: profiling of Flash apps written in the wild showed code that routinely drained battery with aplomb...inexplicable to end users not also programmers. | | |
| ▲ | mrandish 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It's unsurprising that the internal narrative focused on the plausible user, product and technical issues which happen to align with sustaining the multi-billion dollar monopoly. Senior leadership isn't going to say the 'quiet part' out loud in all-hands meetings. I also worked in a valley giant with a multi-billion dollar monopoly position being preserved in a similar way. But I was senior enough to see both sides - the divisional all-hands mtgs and (some of) the exec staff mtgs (my boss was an EVP reporting directly to the CEO). The instructive part was observing what happened in the senior staff mtgs when a serious user, product or technical issue emerged which directly conflicted with sustaining the multi-billion dollar monopoly. Even in small mtgs with just the CEO, a couple EVPs and a handful of their direct reports, I never witnessed any explicit collusion or overt manipulation. The reason is surprisingly simple, they don't need to. They can make "the right thing" happen without being so obvious - just by controlling the agenda, attendees and context and then asking the right questions, prioritizing certain concerns and selecting the right working group leader to "come back with options which balance these concerns". These EVPs didn't get to where they are by plainly speaking their mind, although they are masters of appearing to do so when it serves them. At that level, there are degrees of subtlety and multi-dimensional chess that make Machiavelli look like a toddler. All those years of being "in the room where it happens" fairly frequently and there wasn't one moment where I thought, "Wow, if I leaked a tape recording of the last 60 seconds, somebody very important is losing their job." These people are far to experienced and skilled at this for it to be that simple. Which isn't to say there may not have been some very private conversations between only the CEO and an EVP or two where things were said explicitly - but I'm not even sure that was necessary. Frankly, the euphemistic language and context control is sufficient that it's probably easier for the them to "stay in character" all the time. In fact, I think some of them sort of believe it themselves - or at least prefer to avoid stewing on the more "unpleasant realities" of the job. Most of these people are, in their own minds, still the 'good guy' in the story they tell themselves. | | |
| ▲ | jjtheblunt 4 days ago | parent [-] | | we evidently both had very senior positions, but i came away with the impression that parts of Apple might operate differently than inner sanctum hw engineering (obviously) , though what i mentioned wasn't from some pep talks, but rather from hard data. i think the last two sentences you wrote resonate, for sure, though! | | |
| ▲ | mrandish 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > i came away with the impression that parts of Apple might operate differently than inner sanctum hw engineering I agree and I'm not at all questioning what you experienced. I saw similar things. In the case of Apple, it makes sense the iPhone business would prioritize issues like battery life etc and that the App Store business would prioritize maximizing their multi-billion dollar monopoly revenue stream. Within each business unit they're going to make decisions and allocate resources based on maximizing the metrics their business is judged on. Where it gets 'interesting' is when two major business units have priorities which directly conflict - like one BU achieving a major objective requires the other BU to not achieve one of their major objectives. When those conflicts are things which directly impact tens of millions or more in revenue and are also high-visibility issues, the conflict gets elevated to the CEO in a small group mtg with both EVPs where they assesses the trade-offs on each side. Ultimately, the CEO is going to pick a 'winner' based on the overall impact to company-wide revenue and the stock price. If the issue is preserving (or losing) the app store monopoly worth billions - we can guess which side is very likely going to win. And maximum motivated reasoning will be deployed to highlight the many reasons that outcome is correct. Many of those reasons will even be legitimate :-). | | |
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| ▲ | azangru 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. I agree with you. But, as devil's advocate, why not suggest that Apple should be allowed to run as crappy a store as they want, while people should be free not to buy Apple? |
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| ▲ | Y-bar 4 days ago | parent [-] | | People are free to buy Apple (or an Android flavour, or no smartphone at all). But there are many many things which goes into a buying decision than what manner of software delivery is available. This duopoly does not truly offer a lot of choice, so any criticism must happen from within the confines of the current reality. I’m not going to tell a pedestrian who wants safer roads to stop being a participant in traffic, I accept that they have very little real choice. Having to uncritically accept anything and everything the manufacturer of your device does is not really viable and is a recipe for a worse future. |
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| ▲ | nabla9 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Of course Apple would never go for that They do in EU, because they were forced to. AltStore PAL https://altstore.io/ Buildstore https://builds.io/ Aptoide https://en.aptoide.com .. and so on |
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| ▲ | troupo 4 days ago | parent [-] | | They also go out of the way to make these stores prohibitively expensive to set up and still applies app review to apps distributed through those stores (even though they claim they don't and won't) | | |
| ▲ | nabla9 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > prohibitively expensive fact checking Apple Tier 1 mandatory store services: 0.5€ Core Technology fee per install
2% Initial acquisition fee
5% Store service fee
This includes app reviews, manual updates, and fraud protection. This tier is mandatory for any app that promotes external payment options.Compare that to 20-30% that Apple's own AppStore take and its a bargain. Even with Tier 2 with marketing tools, automatic updates, app recommendations, analytics dashboards, and promotional features the cost is only 10% for small business program members, 15% for others. | | |
| ▲ | troupo 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > fact checking You forgot that just to set up an alternative app store you need this: --- start quote --- Provide Apple a stand-by letter of credit in the amount of €1,000,000 from a financial institution that’s at least A-rated or equivalent by S&P, Fitch, or Moody’s, and maintain that standby letter of credit as long as your alternative app marketplace is in operation --- end quote --- > 0.5€ Core Technology fee per install per install So if your app is suddenly popular, you have to pay through the nose. > This includes app reviews, manual updates, and fraud protection. Why is Apple involved in app review on alternative app stores? Why is Apple doing manual updates? Considering the amount of scam apps on App Store, Apple isn't doing fraud protection in their own store. > This tier is mandatory for any app that promotes external payment options. Why? What does Apple have to do with external payment options? | | |
| ▲ | nabla9 4 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | troupo 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I was just trying to protect other readers for falling your "prohibitively expensive" argument thrown in to the mix. Never new that "having a letter of credit for 1 000 000 dollars" and "having to pay 0.5 cents for every install potentially amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars just because people are installing your app" isn't prohibitively expensive > Now after you started Googling That's what you did. I knew about all those charges before you pretended they are nothing to write home about. |
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| ▲ | half-kh-hacker 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | 50c per install (of which there are hundreds of thousands) to a party who should be uninvolved is not reasonable |
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| ▲ | crossroadsguy 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wonder what Apple's bigger fear is - losing that ~30% cut, which is massive, or when they have to compete with alternative app stores and when finally people see how forward "software finesse" has come to in 2025 and how pathetic Apple's software/service ecosystem has been, losing most of the remaining whatever reduced cut it was; i.e. getting hammered at both ends. I think that's why they are fighting tooth and nail to keep the curtain as it is on the grand stage of privacy theatre. |
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| ▲ | merelysounds 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > how pathetic Apple's software/service ecosystem has been Compared to what? Also, are we certain that a better alternative would really appear? E.g. I’m aware of f-droid and I’d install a similar ios libre software store, but I’m not aware of any, even in the EU where alt stores are possible. |
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| ▲ | pabs3 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| ... and we should be able to run whatever OS on Apple phones we want. |
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| ▲ | Cthulhu_ 4 days ago | parent [-] | | But the OS is the main thing that sets Apple apart from other phones; you can get equivalent hardware for half the price, and you get to install whatever OS you want already. The prison is mainly in your head in this case. |
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| ▲ | samdoesnothing 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| People are allowed to get apps from whatever store they want. There is nothing stopping someone from purchasing a device that supports the google play store and downloading whatever they want from that store. I have no right to complain that I can't run Apple programs on a Windows computer, and Microsoft shouldn't be compelled to support MacOS software. |
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| ▲ | groguzt 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | apple isn't allowed to choose whatever I can install on the device that I own and that I purchased with my own money. I am not renting the device. Get your dirty fingers off of what I can or can't do with it. | |
| ▲ | 8note 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | https://www.darlinghq.org/ seems like you can get it to run on windows via wsl if you want to run apps built for macs on your windows machine is there a need to complain? windows might not be putting in support for it, but unlike apple in their store, they arent actively preventing you from doing so | |
| ▲ | TulliusCicero 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ridiculous argument. Microsoft isn't stopping me from running Apple programs on my Windows PC. | |
| ▲ | LocalH 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's not the argument, and you know it. It's not complaints that cross-platform binaries don't run, it's that Apple gatekeeps development in terms of users actually being able to use the fruits of that development (without onerous work arounds like having to reinstall once per week, or jailbreak). |
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| ▲ | jterrys 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I agree with you in principle. But I also, I guess, kinda just have a dumb thought about this whole ordeal. Broadly speaking, we are in a position where we, the general public with the backing of the government, want to change how a private corporation uses it's products that it sold to us. Not for any other reason that would shield us from harm or prevent risk, but rather because the corporation's products are so successful a lot of people use them too much! But wait! That's not actually true because there's enough products on the market that we don't actually need to use this product...but we like it because its incrementally the best and the chat bubbles are blue and applications run better and seem higher quality (which is a selling point of the product we are now actively dismantling but I digress...) I know its tiring to use food cliches, but imagine if like, I make a business selling apple pies and my apple pies are incredibly successful and everyone eats them all the time and now all of a sudden I need to also guarantee that my business can make cherry pies because my apple pies sell so damn well. But truth is, its not really about the apple pies at all. It's about my baking trays. We actually just want to make sure that the baking trays of my business are now capable of also cooking for cherry pies even though that's got nothing to do with my fucking business. I sell apple pies. I'm so confused |
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| ▲ | concinds 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Okay. Now flip this free-enterprise metaphor. Apple is dictating the behavior of every business operating in the digital market (Apple itself brags that this amounts to over $1 trillion, with a T, in economic activity), with the App Store, which has 70-80% profit margins, and numerous dev horror stories. Rejecting your update over something they previously approved, or something they let all your competitors do. Forcing their IAP system on you. Dictating what links you can put in your app, how you present prices (don't call out the Apple tax), what you can tell consumers in emails. Forcing their direct competitors to have an inferior user experiences (can't subscribe in Spotify, can't buy books in Kindle; oh, and bundling Apple Music/Books/TV with the OS, and advertising them throughout the OS). Threatening retaliation if you complain publicly ("If you run to the press, it never helps.") Blocking VPNs or secure messaging in authoritarian countries, and you can't sideload. Sabotaging the web to keep their monopoly (even trying to kill PWAs recently). Apple feels entitled to a higher profit margin on your business than your business will ever achieve for itself! That's nuts! | |
| ▲ | Nevermark 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Large corporations with large marketshare can easily do significantly uncompetitive things, with little effort on their part. No monopoly required. All that is required is that they have large marketshare, an important product, and it is difficult for users to change to alternatives, or avoid its uncompetitive behavior. Choosing a phone involves balancing numerous features of devices. There is no phone market with the thousands of competing devices it would take to really cover what a customer might ideally want. So choices often balance so many things, involve so much practical investment, that they make switching devices over a few things, or even many things, from awfully unpleasant to very difficult. And, with great market power, comes great responsibility: to not become a barrier to competitive innovation and hard work. By definition, Apple's strict gatekeeping App Store, a significant feature on a significant general purpose computing platform, is anti-competitive. There is no technical reason why side loading or side-stores couldn't thrive, on such a general purpose device intertwined in all our lives. Onerous fees and terms and selective limitation (relative to Apple's own offerings) for developers make it even more anticompetitive. Of course, anyone who likes having fewer options, or just the options they have now, is free to not explore others. For now and forever. Amen. | |
| ▲ | pjc50 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Broadly speaking, we are in a position where we, the general public with the backing of the government, want to change how a private corporation uses it's products that it sold to us Yes, because it's "we the people" not "we the corporations". |
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