| ▲ | jcfrei 3 days ago |
| IMHO this is going to be part of a broader trend where advancements in AI and robotics nullify any comparative advantages low wage countries had. |
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| ▲ | xenotux 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > IMHO this is going to be part of a broader trend where advancements in AI and robotics nullify any comparative advantages low wage countries had. Then why hasn't it yet? In fact, some lower-wage countries such as China are on the forefront of industrial automation? I think the bottom line is that many Western countries went out of their way to make manufacturing - automated or not - very expensive and time-consuming to get off the ground. Robots don't necessarily change that if you still need to buy land, get all the permits, if construction costs many times more, and if your ongoing costs (energy, materials, lawyers, etc) are high. We might discover that AI capacity is easier to grow in these markets too. |
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| ▲ | mensetmanusman 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Hard to honestly say if China is low wage. On one hand, their wages have risen as the work force has shrunk now for a few years and tasks are being outsourced to other countries. On the other hand, their currency is pegged meaning that the earning power of the workers should be much higher so that they can afford the things they are making and transition to a consumer driven economy. | | |
| ▲ | datavirtue 3 days ago | parent [-] | | They are very much devaluing their currency. This is all the rage and I expect a currency devaluation race as the US tries to deal with crushing government liabilities. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not just China and the USA. Pretty much all countries want to devalue their currency to improve their balance of trade in a race to the bottom. Logically not everyone can win the race. | | |
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| ▲ | alecco 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Then why hasn't it yet? Because the current companies are behind the curve. Most of finance still runs on Excel. A lot of other things, too. AI doesn't add much to that. But the new wave of Tech-first companies now have the upper hand since the massive headcount is no longer such an advantage. This is why Big Tech is doing layoffs. They are scared. But the traditional companies would need to redo the whole business and that is unlikely to happen. Not with the MBAs and Boomers running the board. So they are doing the old stupid things they know, like cutting costs by offshoring everything they can and abusing visas. They end up losing knowledgeable people who could've turned the ship around, the remaining employees become apathetic/lazy, and brand loyalty sinks to the bottom. See how S&P 500 - top 10 is flat or dumping. | | |
| ▲ | cicko 3 days ago | parent [-] | | >They end up losing knowledgeable people who could've turned the ship around, the remaining employees become apathetic/lazy, and brand loyalty sinks to the bottom Right. And AI is here to fix that! |
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| ▲ | tempodox 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > We might discover that AI capacity is easier to grow in these markets too. If only because someone else has to build all the nuclear reactors that supply the data centers with electricity. /s |
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| ▲ | ckorhonen 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don’t fully agree. Yes, AI can be seen as a cheaper outsourcing option, but there’s also a plausible future where companies lean more on outsourced engineers who are good at wielding AI effectively, to replace domestic mid-level roles. In other words, instead of nullifying outsourcing, AI might actually amplify it by raising the leverage of offshore talent. |
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| ▲ | PhantomHour 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Consider the kinds of jobs that are popular with outsourcing right now. Jobs like customer/tech support aren't uniquely suited to outsourcing. (Quite the opposite; People rightfully complain about outsourced support being awful. Training outsourced workers on the fine details of your products/services & your own organisation, nevermind empowering them to do things is much harder) They're jobs that companies can neglect. Terrible customer support will hurt your business, but it's not business-critical in the way that outsourced development breaking your ability to put out new features and fixes is. AI is a perfect substitute for terrible outsourced support. LLMs aren't capable of handling genuinely complex problems that need to be handled with precision, nor can they be empowered to make configuration changes. (Consider: Prompt-injection leading to SIM hijacking and other such messes.) But the LLM can tell meemaw to reset her dang router. If that's all you consider support to be (which is almost certainly the case if you outsource it), then you stand nothing to lose from using AI. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > But the LLM can tell meemaw to reset her dang router. If that's all you consider support to be (which is almost certainly the case if you outsource it), then you stand nothing to lose from using AI. I worked in a call center before getting into tech when I was young. I don't have any hard statistics, but by far the majority of calls to support were basic questions or situations (like Meemaw's router) that could easily be solved with a chatbot. If not that, the requests that did require action on accounts could be handled by an LLM with some guardrails, if we can secure against prompt injection. Companies can most likely eliminate a large chunk of customer service employees with an LLM and the customers would barely notice a difference. | |
| ▲ | gausswho 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Also consider the mental health crisis among outsourced content moderation staff that have to appraise all kinds of depravity on a daily basis. This got some heavy reporting a year or two ago, in particular from Facebook. These folks for all their suffering are probably being culled right now. You could anticipate a shift to using AI tools to achieve whatever content moderation goals these large networks have, with humans only handling the uncertain cases. Still brain damage, but less. A good thing? |
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| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I see it the other way around. An internal person with real domain knowledge can use AI far more effectively than an outsourced team. Domain knowledge is what matters now, and companies don’t want to pay for outsiders to learn it on their dime. AI let's the internal team be small enough that it's a better idea to keep things in house. | |
| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | brandall10 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | In a vacuum, sure. But when you take two resources of similar ability and amplify their output, it makes those resources closer in cost per output, and in turn amplifies the risk factors for choosing the cheaper by cost resource. So locality, availability, communication, culture, etc, become more important. |
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| ▲ | cantrevealname 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > AI and robotics nullify any comparative advantages low wage countries had If we project long term, could this mean that countries with the most capital to invest in AI and robotics (like the U.S.) could take back manufacturing dominance from countries with low wages (like China)? |
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| ▲ | adev_ 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > could take back manufacturing dominance from countries with low wages (like China)? The idea that China is a low wages country should just die. It was the case 10y ago, not anymore. Some part of China have higher average salaries than some Eastern European countries. The chance of a robotic industry in the US moving massively jobs from China only due to a pseudo A.I revolution replacing low paid wages (without other external factors, e.g tarifs or sanctions) is close to 0. Now if we do speak about India and the low skill IT jobs there. The story is completely different. | | |
| ▲ | sleepyguy 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > The idea that China is a low wages country should just die. It was the case 10y ago, not anymore. The wages for factory work in a few Eastern European countries are cheaper than Chinese wages. I suppose they don’t have the access to infrastructure and supply chains the Chinese do but that is changing quickly do to the Russian war against Ukraine |
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| ▲ | ceronman 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China dominance in manufacturing, at least in tech, it's not based on cheap labor, but rather in skills, tooling and supply chain advantages. Tim Cook explains it better that I could ever do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wacXUrONUY | | |
| ▲ | themaninthedark 3 days ago | parent [-] | | But it's not like China had the skills, tooling and supply chain to begin with....and it's not like the US suddenly stopped having all those things. There are reasons manufacturing moved out of the US and it was not "They are soooo much better at all the things over there!" Tim Cook had a direct hand in this and know it and is now deflecting because it looks bad. One of the comments on the video puts it way better than I could: @cpaviolo : "He’s partially right, but when I began my career in the industry 30 years ago, the United States was full of highly skilled workers. I had the privilege of being mentored by individuals who had worked on the Space Shuttle program—brilliant professionals who could build anything. I’d like to remind Mr. Cook that during that time, Apple was manufacturing and selling computers made in the U.S., and doing so profitably. Things began to change around 1996 with the rise of outsourcing. Countless shops were forced to close due to a sharp decline in business, and many of those exceptionally skilled workers had to find jobs in other industries. I remember one of my mentors, an incredibly talented tool and die maker, who ended up working as a bartender at the age of 64. That generation of craftsmen has either retired or passed away, and the new generation hasn’t had the opportunity to learn those skills—largely because there are no longer places where such expertise is needed. On top of that, many American workers were required to train their Chinese replacements. Jobs weren’t stolen by China; they were handed over by American corporations, led by executives like Tim Cook, in pursuit of higher profits." | | |
| ▲ | hombre_fatal 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > it was not "They are soooo much better at all the things over there!" Though I think we should also disabuse ourselves of the idea that this can't ever be the case. An obvious example that comes to mind is the US' inability to do anything cheaply anymore, like build city infrastructure. Also, once you enumerate the reasons why something is happening somewhere but not in the US, you may have just explained how they are better de facto than the US. Even if it just cashes out into bureaucracy, nimbyism, politics, lack of will, and anything else that you wouldn't consider worker skillset. Those are just nation-level skillsets and products. | | |
| ▲ | bcrosby95 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Hence "had the skills" and "was not". They are not making claims about the present day, they are talking about why the shift happened in the first place and who brought it about. | | |
| ▲ | hombre_fatal 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Good point. When I commented, the sentence I quoted was the final sentence of their comment essentially leaving it more abstract. Though my comment barely interacts with their point anyways. | | |
| ▲ | themaninthedark 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sorry. I was typing, got distracted and submitted before I meant to. I thought I had edited pretty quickly, normally I put an edit tag if I think too much time had elapsed. | | |
| ▲ | hombre_fatal 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I was just blaming it on that. In reality my comment was making a trivial claim rather than a good observation. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Manufacturing isn’t one uniform block of the economy that is either won or lost. US manufacturers focus on high quality, high precision, and high price orders. China excels at factories that will take small orders and get something shipped. The reason US manufacturers aren’t interested in taking small volume low cost orders is that they have more than enough high margin high quality orders to deal with. Even the small-ish machine shop out in the country near the farm fields by some of my family’s house has pivoted into precision work for a big corporation because it pays better than doing small jobs | | |
| ▲ | themaninthedark 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I would say, it pays more consistently than small jobs. As by nature small jobs are not generally continuous, most often piecemeal. The other factors are:
In any sort of manufacturing, the only time you are making money is when the equipment is making product. If you are stopped for a change over or setup you are losing money.
Changing over contains risk of improper setup, where you lose even more money since you produce unusable product. Where I live, the local machine shops support themselves in two way:
1. Consistent volume work for an established customer.
2. Emergency work for other manufacturing sites: repair or reverse engineering and creating parts to support equipment(fast turn around and high cost) They are willing to do small batches but lead times will be long since they have to work it into their production schedules. |
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| ▲ | Teever 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Probably not because America lacks the blue collar skills necessary to build and service the kind of manufacturing infrastructure needed to do what you're describing. | |
| ▲ | thisoneworks 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hard disagree. You can't just one day wake up and double your energy infrastructure.. China is way ahead. | |
| ▲ | daymanstep 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | China has more robots per capita than the US And the idea that China has low wages is outdated. Companies like Apple don't use China for its low wages, countries like Vietnam have lower wages. China's strength lies in its manufacturing expertise | | |
| ▲ | signatoremo 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Manufacturing expertise that have been transferred from the West over the last 40 years. Knowledge and expertise are fluid, they can go both way, they can be transferred to other countries as well, India, Vietnam, etc. The world doesn’t stand still. | | |
| ▲ | daymanstep 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't get why I was downvoted. I didn't say anything that contradicts what you just said. |
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| ▲ | mensetmanusman 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Western engineers worked relentlessly on knowledge transfer to China to do so, it might be easy to bring back with the 10x industrial subsidies that the CCP provided to do so. | | |
| ▲ | daymanstep 3 days ago | parent [-] | | And the US is already starting to do it, for example partnering with South Korea or Japan to rebuild American shipbuilding. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Depends where you draw the line. I would expect countries like China will continue to leverage AI to extend their lead in areas like low cost manufacturing. Some of the very low cost Chinese vendors I use are already using AI tools to review submitted pieces with mixed results, but they’re only going to get better at it. |
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| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | burnerRhodo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| it's wierd because where before, i've never had a offshore "VA" nor did I think they'd be useful. But after AI, I can just get the VA a subscription to Chatgpt and have them do the initial draft of whatever i need. ChatGPT get 80% of the way, VA gets the next 10 (Copying where i need it, removing obvious stuff that shouldn't be client facing, etc.), i only have to polish the last 10%. |
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| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Lemme know when robots will make your sneakers and T-Shirts and pick fruits from fields at a competitive price to third world slave labor. |
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| ▲ | kjkjadksj 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| They will still be the cheaper countries to run your ai models and robotics factory by a longshot compared to the western world. |