| ▲ | adastra22 7 days ago |
| You are making the same mistake OP is calling out. As far as I can tell “generating context” is exactly what human reasoning is too. Consider the phrase “let’s reason this out” where you then explore all options in detail, before pronouncing your judgement. Feels exactly like what the AI reasoner is doing. |
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| ▲ | stonemetal12 7 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| "let's reason this out" is about gathering all the facts you need, not just noting down random words that are related. The map is not the terrain, words are not facts. |
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| ▲ | adastra22 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | So when you say “that’s the reason this out” you open up Wikipedia or reference textbooks and start gathering facts? I mean that’s great, but I certainly don’t. Most of the time “gathering facts” means recalling relevant info from memory. Which is roughly what the LLM is doing, no? | |
| ▲ | 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | CooCooCaCha 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Reasoning is also about processing facts. | |
| ▲ | ThrowawayTestr 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Have you read the chain of thought output from reasoning models? That's not what it does. | |
| ▲ | energy123 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Performance is proportional to the number of reasoning tokens. How to reconcile that with your opinion that they are "random words"? | | |
| ▲ | kelipso 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Technically random can have probabilities associated with them.. Casual speech, random means equal probabilities, or we don’t know the probabilities. But for LLM token output, it does estimate the probabilities. | | | |
| ▲ | blargey 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | s/random/statistically-likely/g Reducing the distance of each statistical leap improves “performance” since you would avoid failure modes that are specific to the largest statistical leaps, but it doesn’t change the underlying mechanism. Reasoning models still “hallucinate” spectacularly even with “shorter” gaps. | | |
| ▲ | ikari_pl 6 days ago | parent [-] | | What's wrong with statistically likely? If I ask you what's 2+2, there's a single answer I consider much more likely than others. Sometimes, words are likely because they are grounded in ideas and facts they represent. | | |
| ▲ | blargey 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > Sometimes, words are likely because they are grounded in ideas and facts they represent. Yes, and other times they are not. I think the failure modes of a statistical model of a communicative model of thought are unintuitive enough without any added layers of anthropomorphization, so there remains some value in pointing it out. |
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| ▲ | phailhaus 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Feels like, but isn't. When you are reasoning things out, there is a brain with state that is actively modeling the problem. AI does no such thing, it produces text and then uses that text to condition the next text. If it isn't written, it does not exist. Put another way, LLMs are good at talking like they are thinking. That can get you pretty far, but it is not reasoning. |
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| ▲ | Enginerrrd 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The transformer architecture absolutely keeps state information "in its head" so to speak as it produces the next word prediction, and uses that information in its compute. It's true that if it's not producing text, there is no thinking involved, but it
is absolutely NOT clear that the attention block isn't holding state and modeling something as it works to produce text predictions. In fact, I can't think of a way to define it that would make that untrue... unless you mean that there isn't a system wherein something like attention is updating/computing and the model itself chooses when to make text predictions. That's by design, but what you're arguing doesn't really follow. Now, whether what the model is thinking about inside that attention block matches up exactly or completely with the text it's producing as generated context is probably at least a little dubious, and its unlikely to be a complete representation regardless. | | |
| ▲ | dmacfour 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > The transformer architecture absolutely keeps state information "in its head" so to speak as it produces the next word prediction, and uses that information in its compute. How so? Transformers are state space models. |
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| ▲ | double0jimb0 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | So exactly what language/paradigm is this brain modeling the problem within? | | |
| ▲ | phailhaus 6 days ago | parent [-] | | We literally don't know. We don't understand how the brain stores concepts. It's not necessarily language: there are people that do not have an internal monologue, and yet they are still capable of higher level thinking. | | |
| ▲ | chrisweekly 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Rilke:
"There is a depth of thought untouched by words, and deeper still a depth of formless feeling untouched by thought." | |
| ▲ | adastra22 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am one of those for what it’s worth. I struggle to put my thoughts into words, as it does not come naturally to me. When I think internally, I do not use language at all, a lot of of the time. Drive my wife crazy as my answer to her questions are always really slow and considered. I have the first think what thought I want to convey, and then think “how do I translate this into words?” |
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| ▲ | kelipso 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| No, people make logical connections, make inferences, make sure all of it fits together without logical errors, etc. |
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| ▲ | adastra22 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | How do they do that? Specifically, how? Moment by moment what does that look like? Usually it involves e.g. making a statement and “noticing” a contradiction in that statement. Very similar to how an LLM reasons. I think a lot of people here think people reason like a mathematical theorem prover, like some sort of platonic ideal rationalist. That’s not how real brains work though. | | |
| ▲ | kelipso 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Noticing a contradiction when making a statement is just one way writers find contradictions, and that kind of immediate noticing would only be for obvious contradictions. There are tons of other things you do, like recalling relevant facts related to the new statement and making sure the statement fits into the facts. You go through a timeline, make sure the statement fits into the timeline. You look at the implications of the statement, make sure those fit with other relevant facts. You opt to do these things depending on what the sentence means and implies. This is not just you "noticing" a contradiction, it's a process. And what does how real brains work mean anyway. You can't compare writers thinking and writing a novel to some six year old writing a paragraph. |
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| ▲ | pixl97 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | These people you're talking about must be rare online, as human communication is pretty rife with logical errors. | | |
| ▲ | mdp2021 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Since that November in which this technology boomed we have been much too often reading "people also drink from puddles", as if it were standard practice. That we implement skills, not deficiencies, is a basic concept that is getting to such a level of needed visibility it should probably be inserted in the guidelines. We implement skills, not deficiencies. | |
| ▲ | kelipso 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You shouldn’t be basing your entire worldview around the lowest common denominator. All kinds of writers like blog writers, novelists, scriptwriters, technical writers, academics, poets, lawyers, philosophers, mathematicians, and even teenage fan fiction writers do what I said above routinely. |
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| ▲ | viccis 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >As far as I can tell “generating context” is exactly what human reasoning is too. This was the view of Hume (humans as bundles of experience who just collect information and make educated guesses for everything). Unfortunately, it leads to philosophical skepticism, in which you can't ground any knowledge absolutely, as it's all just justified by some knowledge you got from someone else, which also came from someone else, etc., and eventually you can't actually justify any knowledge that isn't directly a result of experience (the concept of "every effect has a cause" is a classic example). There have been plenty of epistemological responses to this viewpoint, with Kant's view, of humans doing a mix of "gathering context" (using our senses) but also applying universal categorical reasoning to schematize and understand / reason from the objects we sense, being the most well known. I feel like anyone talking about the epistemology of AI should spend some time reading the basics of all of the thought from the greatest thinkers on the subject in history... |
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| ▲ | js8 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > I feel like anyone talking about the epistemology of AI should spend some time reading the basics I agree, I think the problem with AI is we don't know or haven't formalized enough what epistemology should AGI systems have. Instead, people are looking for shortcuts, feeding huge amount of data into the models, hoping it will self-organize into something that humans actually want. | | |
| ▲ | viccis 6 days ago | parent [-] | | It's partly driven by a hope that if you can model language well enough, you'll then have a model of knowledge. Logical positivism tried that with logical systems, which are much more precise languages of expressing facts, and it still fell on its face. |
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| ▲ | adastra22 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | FYI this posts comes off as incredibly pretentious. You think we haven’t read the same philosophy? This isn’t about epistemology. We are talking about psychology. What does your brain do when we “reason things out”? Not “can we know anything anyway?” Or “what is the correlation between the map and the territory?” Nor anything like that. Just “what is your brain doing when you think you are reasoning?” And “is what an LLM does comparable? Philosophy doesn’t have answers for questions of applied psychology. | | |
| ▲ | viccis 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >FYI this posts comes off as incredibly pretentious. You think we haven’t read the same philosophy? Rigorous language often comes across as pretentious to any layperson, especially when it concerns subjects like philosophy. I don't know what philosophy you've read, but, based on my experience, it's a pretty safe assumption that most AI practitioners do not own a well creased copy of Critique of Pure Reason. >This isn’t about epistemology. We are talking about psychology. What does your brain do when we “reason things out”? The only way to compare what our brain does (psychologically or neurologically) to what LLMs or other models do when we "reason things out" is via epistemology, which is to say "how is it possible to reason that out". Asking how our brains do it psychologically or neurologically is really not relevant, as LLMs are not designed the same as our brains. >Philosophy doesn’t have answers for questions of applied psychology. I think that expecting philosophy to have any "answers" for topics that include metaphysical questions is unreasonable, yes. But to even bring up "psychology" when discussing generative probability models is unhelpful anthropomorphization. |
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| ▲ | mdp2021 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But a big point here becomes whether the generated "context" then receives proper processing. |
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| ▲ | adastra22 6 days ago | parent [-] | | What processing? When you have an internal line of thought, what processing do you do on it? For me, it feels like I say something, and in saying it, and putting it into words, I have a feeling about whether it is true and supported or not. A qualitative gauge of its correctness. A lot of my reasoning is done this way, trusting that these feelings are based off of a lifetime experience of accumulated facts and the another things currently being considered. Explain to me how this is different than a neural net outputting a weight for the truthiness of the state space vector? | | |
| ▲ | mdp2021 6 days ago | parent [-] | | I meant the LLM. I meant, with «whether the generated "context" then receives proper processing», whether the CoT generated by the LLM and here framed as further "context", regardless here of how properly it is generated, receives adequate processing by the internals of the NN. A good context (any good context) does not necessarily lead to a good output in LLMs. (It does necessarily lead to a better output, but not necessarily a satisfying, proper, decent, consequential one.) |
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| ▲ | slashdave 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Perhaps we can find some objective means to decide, rather than go with what "feels" correct |
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| ▲ | adastra22 6 days ago | parent [-] | | That’s not how our brains work though, or how must examples of human reasoning play out. When asking “do LLMs reason” we are asking whether the action being performed is similar to regular humans, not some platonic ideal of a scientist/rationalist. | | |
| ▲ | mdp2021 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > When asking “do LLMs reason” we are asking whether the action being performed is similar to Very certainly not. We ask if the system achieves the goal. "When we ask if the coprocessor performs floating point arithmetic, we ask if the system achieves the goal (of getting accurate results)". Not, "does the co-processor ask if we have a spare napkin". |
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