It’s always been like this, have you read the Bible? Or the Koran? It’s insane. Ours is just our flavor of crazy. Every generation has some. When you dig at it, there’s always a religion.

It's no more crazy than a virgin conception. And yet, here we are. A good chunk of the planet believes that drivel, but they'd throw their own daughters out of the house if they made the same claim.

> Came to ask a similar question, but also has it always been like this?

Crazy people have always existed (especially cults), but I'd argue recruitment numbers are through the roof thanks to technology and a failing economic environment (instability makes people rationalize crazy behavior).

It's not that those groups didn't have visibility before, it's just easier for the people who share the same...interests...to cloister together on an international scale.

Have you heard of Heavens Gate? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_g...].

There are at least a dozen I can think of, including the ‘drink the koolaid’ Jonestown massacre.

People be crazy, yo.

I mean, cults have constantly shown up for all of recorded human history. Read a history of Scientology and you'll see a lot of commonalities, say. Rationalism is probably the first major cult/new religion to emerge in the internet era (Objectivism may be a marginal case, as its rise overlapped with USENET a bit), which does make it especially visible.

I personally (for better or worse) became familiar with Ayn Rand as a teenager, and I think Objectivism as a kind of extended Ayn Rand social circle and set of organizations has faced the charge of cultish-ness, and that dates back to, I want to say, the 70s and 80s at least. I know Rand wrote much earlier than that, but I think the social and organizational dynamics unfolded rather late in her career.

I my experience, religious people are perfectly fine with contradicted worldview.

Like christians are very flexible in following 10 commandments, always been.

Most "rationalists" throughout history have been very deeply religious people. Secular enlightenment-era rationalism is not the only direction you can go with it. It depends very much, as others have said, on what your axioms are.

But, fwiw, that particular role-playing game was very much based on trendy at the time occult beliefs in things like chaos magic, so it's not completely off the wall.

Mage is an interesting game though: it's fantasy, but not "swords and dragons" fantasy. It's set in the real world, and the "magic" is just the "mage" shifting probabilities so that unlikely (but possible) things occur.

Such a setting would seem like the perfect backdrop for a cult that claims "we have the power to subtly influence reality and make improbable things (ie. "magic") occur".

Rationalizing the fantasy. Like LARPing. Only you lack weapons, armor, magic missiles…

They all do this, only most prefer to name the fantasy they play with something a little more grounded like "mathematics" or "statistics" or "longtermism" or "rationality."

> I don't know how you can call yourself a "rationalist" and base your worldview on a fantasy game.

Most rationalists wouldn't know either, except for the five members of the cult.

"Rationalist" in this context does not mean "rational person," but rather "person who rationalizes."

I mean, is it a really good game?

I’ve never played, but now I’m kind of interesting.

I mean see also the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. You can't really take what groups call themselves too seriously.

Then again, most people tend to form really bogus beliefs without bothering to establish any premises. They may not even be internally consistent or align meaningfully with reality. I imagine having premises and thinking it through has a better track record of reaching conclusions consistent with reality.

If what you say is true, we're very lucky no one like that with a massive following has ever gotten into politics in the United States. It would be an ongoing disaster!

That's pretty much it. The beliefs are just a cover story.

Outside of those, the cult dynamics are cut-paste, and always involve an entitled narcissistic cult leader acquiring as much attention/praise, sex, money, and power as possible from the abuse and exploitation of followers.

Most religion works like this. Most alternative spirituality works like this Most finance works like this. Most corporate culture works like this. Most politics works like this.

Most science works like this. (It shouldn't, but the number of abused and exploited PhD students and post-docs is very much not zero.)

The only variables are the differing proportions of attention/praise, sex, money, and power available to leaders, and the amount of abuse that can be delivered to those lower down and/or outside the hierarchy.

The hierarchy and the realities of exploitation and abuse are a constant.

If you removed this dynamic from contemporary culture there wouldn't be a lot left.

Fortunately quite a lot of good things happen in spite of it. But a lot more would happen if it wasn't foundational.

Yes. The cult's "beliefs" really boil down to one belief: the infallibility of the leader. Much of the attraction is in the simplicity.

Nah I did Ayahuasca and I'm an empathetic person who most would consider normal or at least well-adjusted. If it's drug related it would most definitely be something else.

I’m inclined to believe your upbringing plays a much larger role.

I slowly deconverted from being raised evangelical / fundamentalist into being an atheist in my late 40s. I still "pray" at times just to (mentally) shout my frustration at the sorry state of the world at SOMETHING (even nothing) rather than constantly yelling my frustration at my family.

I may have actually been less anxious about the state of the world back then, and may have remained so, if I'd just continued to ignore all those little contradictions that I just couldn't ignore anymore...... But I feel SO MUCH less personal guilt about being "human".

I went to a Waldorf school and I’d recommend being really wary. The woo is sort of background noise, and if you’ve raised your kid well they’ll be fine. But the quality of the academics may not be good at all. For example, when I was ready for calculus my school didn’t have anyone who knew how to teach it so they stuck me and the other bright kid in a classroom with a textbook and told us to figure it out. As a side effect of not being challenged, I didn’t have good study habits going into college, which hurt me a lot.

If you’re talking about grade school, interview whoever is gonna be your kids teacher for the next X years and make sure they seem sane. If you’re talking about high school, give a really critical look at the class schedule.

Waldorf schools can vary a lot in this regard so you may not encounter the same problems I did, but it’s good to be cautious.

Don't do it. It's a place that enables child abuse with its culture. These people are serious wackos and you should not give your kid into their hands. A lot of people come out of that Steiner Shitbox traumatized for decades if not for life. They should not be allowed to run schools to begin with. Checking a lot of boxes from antivax to whatever the fuck their lore has to offer starting with a z.

i regret that i have but one upvote to give

The magic system is amazing though, best I've played in any game. Easy to use, role play heavy, and it lets players go wild with ideas, but still reins in their crazier impulses.

Mage: The Awakening is a minor rules revision to the magic system, but the lore is super boring in comparison IMHO. It is too wishy washy.

Ascension has tons of cool source material, and White Wolf ended up tying all their properties together into one grand finale story line. That said it is all very 90s cringe in retrospect, but if you are willing to embrace the 90s retro feel, it is still fun.

Awakening's lore never drew me in, the grand battle just isn't there. So many shades of grey is is damn near technicolor.

I don't know, i'd understand something like Wraith (which I did see people developing issues, the shadow mechanic is such a terrible thing) but Mage is so, like, straightforward?

Use your mind to control reality, reality fights back with paradox, its cool for a teenager but you read a bit more fantasy and you'll definitely find cooler stuff. But i guess for you to join a cult your mind must stay a teen mind forever.

People have been going nuts all throughout recorded history, that's really nothing new.

The only scary thing is that they have ever more power to change the world and influence others without being forced to grapple with that responsibility...

> I think people are going nuts because we've drifted from the dock of a stable civilization.

When was stable period, exactly? I'm 40; the only semi-stable bit I can think of in my lifetime was a few years in the 90s (referred to, sometimes unironically, as "the end of history" at the time, before history decided to come out of retirement).

Everything's always been unstable, people sometimes just take a slightly rose-tinted view of the past.

Gnosticism... generating dumb cults that seem smart on the outside for 2+ thousand years. Likely to keep it up for 2k more.

And therefore you should believe in me and my low low 10% tithe! That's the only way to not get tricked into believing something wrong so don't delay!