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chrisco255 9 days ago

For context, Franklin had already been in Britain for 13 years by this point trying to lobby Parliament and the King about various grievances with the Crown's governance over the colonies. He would spend another 2 years trying in vain to get them to listen, before finally sailing back to America in March 1775.

wpm 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

If anyone is ever in London and looking for a fun two-hour diversion, the Ben Franklin museum is an interesting look at this time in his life

m463 9 days ago | parent [-]

I loved the Franklin Institute, but (lol) it was in philadelphia.

amy_petrik 8 days ago | parent | next [-]

He founded the frankling institute in philly and declared it shall have a giant heart, he founded the university of pennsylvania state university, he invented electricity, the very pipes series that the internet interconnected, he invented glasses (that you wear, not drinking glasses those were Jefferson's invention), he invented karate, he invented the public library, he invented volunteer firefighters, he invented doggystyle position, he invented viral books and meme books, he invented french fries, he invented swimming fins, he invented swimming snorkel, he invented the wood stove (cooking AND heat), he invented urinary catheters, he invented the cotton gin, he invented an early type of musical synthesizer called the arm-monica, he invented the odometer, he invented oil pressure gauge, he invented the limbo dance, but most of all, he definitely founded the franklin institute and it definitely wasn't named after him after the fact

mplewis9z 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They're talking about the Benjamin Franklin House, which is in fact in London.

m463 9 days ago | parent [-]

I realize that. He's like the colossus of rhodes with his feet on two continents.

9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
begueradj 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

He was a Freemason :)

SwtCyber 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's the voice of someone who's done asking politely and is now holding up a mirror with a smirk

UberFly 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As much as he loved Britain, his returning to the colonies after 15 years says a ton about his well-deserved character.

pjc50 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

Everyone arguing below this about a flagged comment, but I'm slightly behind - what does it say about his character?

specproc 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Had to get back to check in on his slaves.

thaumasiotes 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> his well-deserved character

What would be an example of someone with a personality they didn't deserve?

hopelite 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

I will presume here, but in America “character” is not just a descriptive adjective, it is also an assumed qualitative adjective with a bias towards the positive. Having “character” is akin to a combination of that you are honorable, are principled, upstanding, and often implies a higher level learning or understanding and some refinement.

It is why it is believed to be “well-deserved” as it is a function of his behaviors, actions, and words.

thaumasiotes 5 days ago | parent [-]

That makes no sense. Your behaviors, actions, and words are your character. That's what "character" means. If you do good things, your character is good. If you do bad things, your character is bad. Those statements are true by definition.

It isn't possible for your character to differ in any direction from your behaviors, actions, and words, since it consists of nothing other than those things.

mathgeek 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This got me wondering if an actual answer would be folks with brain injuries.

nosianu 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

Or heavy metal and other neuro-toxins.

That is a far more severe problem than 99% of the public realize. It is like light outside the visible spectrum, or bacteria and viruses, before we had tools to see them.

While we can detect them, unless somebody has a huge sudden exposure, so that they have clearly attributable symptoms, smaller effects can only - badly - attributed statistically, for populations. Badly, because what exactly do you measure? It's not like you get numbers naturally. More aggression, less brain-ability in general, the measurements used even for the statistical analysis is hard.

Long-term slow exposure always correlates with age, so problems can easily be attributed to "aging" instead. And of course stress. And "it's all in your head" - which funnily (or unfunnily) enough is true!

thaumasiotes 9 days ago | parent [-]

Exposure has to be huge, or rather hugely different from the baseline, but it doesn't have to be sudden to be perceived.

This is where we got the expression "mad as a hatter". The problem with being a hatter wasn't that you were suddenly exposed to huge quantities of mercury. It was that you were constantly exposed to it.

nosianu 8 days ago | parent [-]

> Exposure has to be huge

No! Acute exposure is not the only thing that exists!

Source: Both the official line (e.g. that the only save exposure to lead is zero - and lead is not as bad as mercury, also an official line one can found in some NIH doc), as well as my own experience, as someone diagnosed and treated with chelators (see past comments).

You have chronic and acute. Chronic small does exposure exists. It has the problem that we have no reliable ways to diagnose or to treat that case, which is why I do not fault the medical system to be blind there. They just can't really do much or anything. If they did, it would be very inefficient, because there is no quick fix pill or surgery.

Just like Trump trying to stop reporting on things does not mean they don't exist, just because we don't try too hard (or at all) because we don't have a practical solution even in case of an assured diagnosis, if such were possible with current means, does not mean that only acute exposure problems exist.

thaumasiotes 7 days ago | parent [-]

I don't really see what you're trying to tell me. The example I gave of "huge" exposure was hatters.

thaumasiotes 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That's fair.

inopinatus 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Marvin.

bariumbitmap 9 days ago | parent [-]

Explanation for the uninitiated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_the_Paranoid_Android

ratelimitsteve 9 days ago | parent [-]

Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and you deign to explain to me?

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe they meant well-deserved reputation or something.

ang_cire 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Anyone with a personality disorder.

anonym29 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

goatsi 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

The Confederacy initiated the civil war by attacking a US government military facility, not Lincoln.

thaumasiotes 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm struggling to see how this is relevant to the question of whether Lincoln deserved to have the personality that he did have.

anonym29 9 days ago | parent [-]

You know what? I was interpreting the question as regarding public perception of personality, rather than actual personality, but re-reading it, I think you're right, my bad.

balamatom 9 days ago | parent [-]

There only ever exists the public perception of personality. From the inside you just observe a stream of events. So you're not conflating and they're not funny.

aredox 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your so-called "deadliest conflict in American History" was just a blip in demographics of WASPs, whereas Native Americans have been almost exterminated and Black Slaves have died by the millions.

hulitu 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Lincoln

He didn't acted alone. He had an apparatus at his disposal. Blaming a single person for acts of hundreds is so 21 century.

Simon_O_Rourke 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> responded by having him arrested on grounds of making anti-war speeches, tried him in a military tribunal despite Vallandigham being a civilian, and sentenced him to imprisonment, before Lincoln commuted the sentence to banish Vallandigham to the Confederacy)

That was good enough for him in my book.

motorest 9 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

9 days ago | parent | next [-]
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bbarnett 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

bbarnett 9 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

cowcity 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Breaking rules isn't bad; it's just hard to do successfully. Lincoln did it successfully, evidenced by the lack of people who sympathize with your complaints.

balamatom 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

>the lack of people who sympathize

is evidence for nothing, same as the presence of such

GLdRH 9 days ago | parent [-]

It's democracy

balamatom 9 days ago | parent [-]

So, no person - no problem?

anonym29 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

So just to be clear, your take here is that the president violating the constitution isn't bad as long as the president feels that the ends justify the means?

The "rules" - the constitution, the law - must apply to everyone equally, otherwise it loses legitimacy.

If Trump believes that the means of deporting US citizens to CECOT without a trial (unconstitutional) is justified by his end goals, does that make him right to circumvent the judicial system, violating the laws established by the legislature in the process?

The system of checks and balances exists for a reason. It sets a dangerous precedent when any president treads astray of those constitutional guardrails, no matter what party, no matter what policy, because it empowers future presidents to do the same.

Maybe if more people did sympathize with these values, we wouldn't have the president shipping American citizens to prisons overseas without trial.

mock-possum 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

try telling Sojourner Truth or Harriet Tubman that the constitution and rule of law applied to everyone equally.

Trump is making things worse by instituting oppression - Lincoln was making things better by dismantling institutionalized oppression. Trump is committing acts of racism, Lincoln was preventing acts of racism. It’s not the same thing.

The president - and any moral person - is absolutely honor-bound to break the rules, when the rules themselves are unethical, when the rules enforce mistreating others, and protect the perpetrators of injustice.

Human rights are always worth having a war over.

cowcity 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not making any moral claims. I'm just saying how history works.

komali2 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"Law" is a silly word to describe the regulation a legislative body puts to paper, in my opinion we should stop using it like that.

Here's some laws:

In an isolated system, entropy increases.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted.

An object at rest remains at rest unless it's acted upon by outside forces.

Law is a great word to describe these things. They're immutable facts of the universe.

Now here's some things humans call "laws":

> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

> No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Well that's just orders of magnitude difference in scope! How can we use the same word to describe immutable facts of the universe as we do to describe how we think people should behave in order to create the kind of society we believe we want to live in? We can't even say for certain that perfect adherence to those "laws" would create that society we want to live in nor can we agree what that society should look like!

Not to mention these "laws" are easily violated, and sometimes it's good to do so, as when Lincoln did so in his fight against slavery and to maintain the State.

I think it's silly to pretend human law is law. Step into any courtroom and watch your law and due process at work - the overwhelmed court system plays so fast and loose and the results of any given case are so dependent upon the judge and their mood at the moment you'll be sick!

Trump violates due process, yes indeed, but due process barely ever existed in America. The same country that secretly infected black soldiers with veneral diseases, bombed its own citizens, threw Asian Americans indiscriminately into concentration camps, that country has "due process?" The same country where cops gun down unarmed civilians, or if you're lucky merely extrajudicially beat the shit out of you, that country has due process?

It's the same in every State throughout all of history. Laws are never laws, they're regulations applied when convenient to serve the needs of the State or those in power. When a law doesn't serve the needs of the State or its bureaucrats, even if its enforcement would benefit the people, the law is ignored or "temporarily suspended." Trump just does this quiet thing out loud.

The word "law" is used to trick people into thinking that these rules are as immutable as the first law of thermodynamics, when in reality the ones who write the laws and ostensibly enforce them flaunt them at every turn. I've just read a story about a USA politician who modified an age of consent "law" when it was being used to convict his cousin who was on trial for raping a child. Now the cousin gets off with time served and community service. Now that's a "law" alright!

Propelloni 9 days ago | parent | next [-]

> "Law" is a silly word to describe the regulation a legislative body puts to paper, in my opinion we should stop using it like that.

I understand where you are coming from, but you've got it backwards. Natural sciences adopted the word "law" to describe some "immutable" principles (that's obviously a descriptive use, ie. our descriptions of our understanding of some observations).

The word "law" comes from moral philosophy ("what is right?" and "what should we do?") and jurisprudence ("what is law?" and "what should be law?") of the ancient Romans ("lex") and is deeply rooted in the idea of norms (as in "normative", ie. that's how it should be) we, as humans, set for ourselves. Thus it is not silly to describe a regulation a legislative body puts to paper as law. That's what it means.

Note, I'm not saying you are wrong. It's just language changing and I wouldn't worry too much.

arethuza 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I would quibble about calling something "immutable" - if something isn't falsifiable then it isn't science?

gadders 9 days ago | parent | prev [-]

15 years? He didn't really try hard enough.