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kulahan 3 days ago

I simply don’t believe this is as hard as everyone makes it out to be. I still think it’s an issue of heightened expectations.

There is a strong belief that everyone should be able to afford a place to live, alone, in some place with a convenient location (downtown or within walking distance of transit), and then after a few years you should be able to buy a house.

When I grew up, I had multiple roommates, and we’d carpool whenever possible. I scrimped and saved pretty hard to get a down payment saved up. By my day’s standards, it wasn’t crazy to cook 99% of your own food, brew all your coffee at home or the office (hopefully free), get any free food you can possibly convince your employer to give you, and have one TV everyone fights over. My dad made his own “furniture” (until my mom moved in and smacked some sense into him…). My mom grew up sleeping in an hot attic with 3 siblings, because the other 5 siblings took up all available rooms.

I’m not saying life shouldn’t improve each generation, but I think people are expecting it to improve way faster than it actually is.

cameldrv 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Expectations are a factor, but also practicality. Back then you could get a decent job with a high school education or even less. If you had a good job, you could afford a house and a car with one income.

My uncle worked in the GM plant for many years, owned a nice house and a car and a bass boat and is comfortably retired. His wife never worked. I remember my aunt telling us that we shouldn’t get him books for Christmas presents because he couldn’t read very well.

Now to do this you need both parents working. They both need degrees that need paying off, and they need to live in a major metro area, because they both need to have good paying, specialized jobs. In the old days you might move to some little town so the dad could work at some factory, but now the mom has to also find a job in her specialty, so you need to be in a big city to find jobs for both of them within commuting distance.

In this context, everyone is bombarded with social media telling them that they should have fancy cars and houses and vacation in Bali, and they’re stretched to the breaking point and can’t have any kids.

laughing_man 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Autoworkers were not the norm. They had the strongest unions in the country, and were able to bargain for wages you couldn't get anywhere else. Their compensation was so good GM and Ford eventually went bankrupt, while Chrysler kind of disappeared.

I remember as a degreed electrical engineer making $35k when the average auto worker was making almost $80k. That's an aberration and could never have continued.

satyrun 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The problem is you had to know someone that worked at GM to get a job at GM.

I had a family friend that was a union boss and after high school he got his son into GM. The family friend though wasn't going to get me in.

It was huge money at the time but it is also why GM stopped being competitive. I think the union boss friend retired at 45 or something completely ridiculous.

Of course he also had the nicest sports car, a huge boat, a huge house for the time.

chadcmulligan 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It doesn't matter how much you cook at home if wages haven't kept up with house prices (in australia anyway) - https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/the-charts-that-show-why...

kulahan 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It’s much the same in the US. The 2008 housing crisis contributed massively to our current housing shortage, zoning has gotten tricky, and while wages have grown by 20-30% since the 70s, housing prices have doubled.

The problem, it seems, is the stratification of classes expanding.

sarchertech 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In the US and probably in Australia at the top of the market. If housing prices crash like they did in 2008/2009, those charts will look a whole lot better.

chadcmulligan 3 days ago | parent [-]

It would need a very big crash, this is 50 years of price increases - https://www.realestatebusiness.com.au/industry/29004-50-year...

It's the much quoted - boomers pulling up the ladder after them in action. In the oz market new home buyers can't compete with investors that are pushing up prices.

sarchertech 3 days ago | parent [-]

From the peak in 2006 to the lowest point in 2012 the US we saw housing price drops of close to 1/3.

In the areas that rose the most, they dropped 50%.

Based on that article you linked a 50% drop in the hottest markets wouldn’t bring price to income ratios down to 1975 but it would be kinda close.

Especially when you consider house sizes now vs then.

chadcmulligan 3 days ago | parent [-]

Seems we're talking about different markets - the 2007/2008 crash didn't really change prices here, just slowed growth. There seems no crash in site here. https://creditmediation.com.au/news/2024/10/10/the-rise-and-...

sarchertech 3 days ago | parent [-]

According to that article government stimulus propped up property prices.

Maybe there’s something unique to the Australian market that justifies 30 years of rising prices with no corrections.

Or maybe you’re overdue for a massive bust.

wink 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I very recently did the math and with my CS job (and my wife's salary) in our early 40s (so both full time for at least 15 years) we could about now have bought the kind of house my parents bought when I was a kid - if it were the same price, just adjusted for inflation. But it's three times that adjusted cost. (Not the US, Germany)

Not sure that is a heightened expectation, you're just out of luck if you don't already have a house. And people in their twenties just have it even worse.

kulahan 2 days ago | parent [-]

Is this one of the most expensive places to live in the nation? As population grows globally, I would expect the most desirable homes to outpace others.

Anyways, I dunno how things work in other nations, and real estate is so different that it can be difficult to compare. For example, there are ways to "rent" a home in Korea for an absolutely massive one-time deposit that you eventually get back. England has 14 trillion box homes slammed together with a quarter inch strip of land in the back yard. Japan has people knocking down their home every single time they buy a new property.

I'm not far out of my 20s, and really, all I did on a SINGLE income was (like I said) scrimp and save. We lived in a cheapo apartment until we could save up for a down payment on a condo. That appreciated (as homes do), and now I have enough for a sizeable down payment on a house.

I also didn't take any special routes of privilege, really. I joined the military as a college dropout, served for 6 years, got experience in a career, then left and got a job in the real world. Much of my saving was done while in the military, because especially when you're new, you pay for nothing. Not food, not housing, not work clothing, not healthcare, etc.

Plus, when compared with median salaries, US housing is shockingly affordable.