| ▲ | stego-tech 5 days ago |
| The author gets into a few issues I’ve talked at length about on my own blogs over the years, with the same gist: self-hosting is a better alternative than corporate cloud providers, but isn’t suitable for the everyman due to its complexity and associated costs. The grim reality is that most people and businesses still have such disdain for their own privacy, security, and/or sovereignty, and that’s not going to change absent a profound crisis in all of the above simultaneously (y’know, like what the USA is doing atm). I do like that the author gets into alternatives, like the library storage idea (my similar concept involved the USPS giving citizens gratis space and a CDN). I think that’s a discussion we need a lot more of, including towns or states building publicly-owned datacenters and infrastructure to support more community efforts involving technology. We also need more engagement from FOSS projects in making their software as easy to deploy with security best practices as possible, by default, such that more people can get right to tinkering and building without having to understand how the proverbial sausage is made. That’s arguably the biggest gap at the moment, because solving the UX side (like Plex did) enables more people to self-host and more communities to consider offering compute services to their citizens. I’m glad to see a stronger rejection of this notion that a handful of private corporations should control the bulk of technology and the associated industry running atop it, and I’m happy to see more folks discussing alternative futures to it. |
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| ▲ | serbuvlad 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Self-hosting is a better alternative than corporate cloud providers, but isn’t suitable for the everyman due to its complexity and associated costs. What costs? I run a self-hosted soultion for ~5 people off a $150 N100 machine + storage costs and currently my bottleneck is Jellyfin transcoding speed. I want to scale out with a couple more $150 N100/N150 machines to ~20 users: my entire extended family and friends. As a point of comparison an iPhone 16 non-pro starts at $799. That's the fixed costs, the running costs are extremely tiny. The N100 eats up electricity like an anorexic model chewing up red meat, the domain is $10/year and the dynamic DNS is ~$3/month (and I didn't even go for a particularly cheap one). |
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| ▲ | whartung 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > What costs? I run a self-hosted soultion for ~5 people off a $150 N100 machine + storage costs and currently my bottleneck is Jellyfin transcoding speed. I want to scale out with a couple more $150 N100/N150 machines to ~20 users: my entire extended family and friends. Support has costs. Anyone here can grab an N100 off of ebay, install "self hosting stuff" (much like the guy in the post did), put it back on eBay with a 50-100% markup. "Plug and play, self hosted. Plug in a TB drive for more storage. Total solution!" And it's still not enough. They need a domain, they need a tunnel, they need to hook up with Lets Encrypt. They need to leave the machine on, and they need a backup strategy. Much less now having to cope with all of the Fine People that inhabit the wild interwebs and will soon come knocking...and knocking...and knocking. This all has to be explained to folks that don't know, have no aptitude for, and simply don't care, about the mechanics of this process. They just want it to work. It's not just a couple of dockers shoved onto a small Linux box. It's free like a puppy. Self hosting is arcane, fiddly stuff. Fine for those comfortable with it, but a nightmare to those who are not. | | |
| ▲ | stego-tech 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This. It’s come a long way since the early days of hosting content out of the home off Torrent Seeders, FTP Servers, and Shoutcast offerings, but support is still the biggest bugbear - both end user support, and product support of industry best practices. Plex doesn’t automatically generate a valid certificate, for instance, even though Let’s Encrypt is a drop-in affair. Home Assistant’s own SSL support is an arcane nightmare out of the box, reminiscent of mid-2000s certificate processes. Proxies like HAProxy and NGINX can better support connection security and encryption termination, but now you have an additional layer to support and manage. This is what I mean by “support has to improve [for self-hosting to be viable for the masses]”: if something isn’t as easy to setup in a secure manner as install, point to your content, and tie a DNS record to it, then that eliminates 99% of the potential customer base right then and there. | |
| ▲ | serbuvlad 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, you need to have (I would argue basic) Linux sysadmin skills. If you don't have those skills, and aren't interested to learn them, then you shouldn't self-host, just because it's the hot new trend. The thing I like the most is the area effect. I have those skills so 5-20 people get a self-hosted experience managed by me. But even so, many people will be left outside of any such area. This too, is fine. My dad knows how to do basic woodworking, so if I need a simple piece of wooden furniture, I go to him. I have a friend who knows how to 3D print stuff (I know nothing about it) and another who's in medical school and gives me medical advice (including "go to the doctor" when the problem is not minor). But I don't have any friends which are good at car mechanics, so I go to the shop (and get charged) for all problems related to that. Now, I do not live in the US, so maybe these sorts of relationships spanning wide fields are less common there, but the solution to rugged individualism doesn't seem to me to be "collectivism on a grand scale", be it corporations or the government. The solution seems to me to be "collectivism on a small scale", building friend-family groups that can solve the most common 80% of problems in most fields within themselves, and that reach into professionals from the larger collective for the other 20% of problems, or for the problems in fields they have no experience in. | | |
| ▲ | quesera 3 days ago | parent [-] | | This makes sense, but "area" self-hosting for friends & family is risky! For myriad reasons, but one critical issue is the persistence of other people's data. If your friend becomes unavailable for medical advice, you go somewhere else. Disappointing but not tragic. If you as the F&F host become unavailable (travel, exhaustion, illness, injury, or worse), then all of those people who depend on you are badly stuck. Things will keep running in your absence (assuming they're set up well) for somewhere between "a while" and "unexpectedly, no time at all". How do your F&Fs migrate all of their data to some other set of providers (different for each media type?), port domains, set up security, etc, without LOTS of help? You're the sole provider of a unique (and no-cost) service. This is fantastic, but a tenuous situation for your users. I have grand ideas for how to solve that problem! But they may be too grand to attempt without funding. And I don't think there is meaningful commercial potential (who would understand this well enough to pay for it?), so it's not an attractive financial investment. Edit: https://peergos.org/ is interesting. |
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| ▲ | subhobroto 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The grim reality is that most people and businesses still have such disdain for their own privacy, security, and/or sovereignty, and that’s not going to change absent a profound crisis in all of the above simultaneously (y’know, like what the USA is doing atm). That has not been my understanding. My understanding is that privacy, security, and sovereignty costs money and most people and businesses find that cost to be too high. At other times they also dont realize what they are trading off for. My aunt in the city didn't understanding why I needed a rifle and would vote for no guns policy in the state. When she visited me and we had a coyote incident one night, she understood. My friends in the city didn't understanding why I have my own well, septic tank and chickens. To them it's a lot of work (it is!) for no good reason, until COVID happened, and they struggled to purchase bottled water, plumbing backed up a few days and food prices shot through the roof. It's all about cost-benefit analysis. My ex-coworker ex-NSA carries only cash and a rooted Android. I dont - although I am aware of a lot of the risks he's hedging against, in part because that too is a lot of effort that I cannot handle right now. |
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| ▲ | drew_lytle 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thanks for reading and for the kinds words! Would love to read more about the USPS concept and couldn't agree more about the UX gap. Lets connect! Send me an email – hn@drewlyton.com! |
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| ▲ | carlosjobim 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I’m glad to see a stronger rejection of this notion that a handful of private corporations should control the bulk of technology and the associated industry running atop it, and I’m happy to see more folks discussing alternative futures to it. Last time I checked, there are about three hundred thousand different companies offering hosting, all over the world. That's a bunch more diverse than the government doing hosting, as per your suggestion. Or having towns contracting Microsoft for it, which would be the result with kolkhoz or sovkhoz cloud hosting. |
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| ▲ | stego-tech 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > Last time I checked, there are about three hundred thousand different companies offering hosting, all over the world. Last time I checked, AWS was estimated to have ~5% of all web sites in the world hosted in its infrastructure, while AWS+GCP+Azure combined equate to ~66% of the global cloud compute market. That doesn't even get into the "providers" who are really just reselling major providers at a markup (like Vercel). It doesn't matter if your town has hundreds of storefronts if one subsidized Walmart is putting them all out of business. Likewise, if every business in town is dependent on the Walmart, then it's really Walmart that controls things and not individual or collective business owners. |
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| ▲ | rightbyte 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > but isn’t suitable for the everyman due to its complexity and associated costs. Complexity, sure. But for most people, the cost of Netflix, Spotify and whatever will quickly add up to a 500usd server. With 1-10 users you don't need much. |
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| ▲ | chneu 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Docker has basically solved the deployment issue. For 9 out of 10 self hosted programs you can have them up in ~5 minutes with a docker compose and env file. There are whole OSes built around it, like casaOS which gives users a neat front end/dashboard for their self hosted stuff. Also for cost eh idk. For $300 you can have enough hardware and storage to self host everything, even a Google photos alternative. Most people spend much more than that on subscriptions for storage, streaming, etc. I guess a UPS is necessary and adds a bit of cost. There are also plenty of pre-built kits for this. I do agree that it isn't for everyone. Its finicky to get just right and security can be very annoying. Security is already a crapshoot though so I'm not sure that's necessarily a ding for self-hosted. |
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| ▲ | jmcqk6 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > For 9 out of 10 self hosted programs you can have them up in ~5 minutes with a docker compose and env file. That is a very small part of operating. How about keeping it update and running? Data backed up? | | |
| ▲ | stego-tech 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Docker is still too complex for the layman, and that's ultimately who we have to win over anyway. Big Tech makes it super easy to surrender privacy and sovereignty by giving them your e-mail and a password to create an account and use a new thing. Apps make it easy to do the same, but now for your physical location and device identifiers as well. Until setting up a private chatroom for your family is as easy as downloading an app on your phone, people are going to keep going back to Big Tech. UX for IT folk and UX for the layman are entirely different beasts, and the UX for IT is only recently improving thanks to things like Docker and the containerization of software making it more widespread and commoditized. | | |
| ▲ | subhobroto 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Until setting up a private chatroom for your family is as easy as downloading an app on your phone It already is - all my family and close friends are on our own Mattermost instance but it still has them have the same social apps everyone else has because two degrees out are not on our own Mattermost instance :) This is absolutely ok! As the cost of providing a service becomes less subsidized and starts to reflect the true cost to service a user, more and more people are going to self-host. Hopefully federated networks take off then. |
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| ▲ | subhobroto 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Docker has kida solved the "run application" issue. The real stuff most people care about is the data those applications manage. If you don't realize what this means (and I won't fault you for it) just imagine what would happen if the $300 hardware and storage were burned down in a house fire or stolen by a burglar. I self host and have offsite backups on rsync.net and a sneakernet network of people where we exchange a few TBs of encrypted storage with one another to hedge this risk but even then there are scenarios where we could lose valuable data. |
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