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TheAmazingRace 2 days ago

It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.

hollywood_court 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Agreed. It seems that Sig really dropped the ball with the P320. My top 3 most used hand guns are the CZ P-10 F, the Sig P365, and the Sig P322.

I honestly never thought I'd ever buy a modern handgun unless it was made by Sig. Until I tried the CZ. The P-10 F is my favorite full sized striker fired pistol. And that's coming from a guy that owns 30+ Sig pistols.

unethical_ban 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, just from a reputational standpoint I'm not sure I ever want to buy a Sig unless it's used. Too many other good brands to financially support. I've been eyeing a Canik or Walther, I want a premium trigger. The CZs are reliable weapons, but their trigger feels "gritty" to me. My Sig SP2022 is my favorite trigger of the guns I own.

hollywood_court 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I had the opposite experience with the P-10 F. Granted it's the only CZ pistol I own. But it's also the only modern pistol I own that was ready to go right out of the box without any kind of needed improvements or modifications.

83 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Fwiw, I love my PPQ Q5 Match.

djoldman 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone who has never touched a firearm, I'm curious: what are you doing firing thousands of rounds? Is it target practice?

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yep target practice. There's different types. There's obviously your, slow, precise target practice focusing on tight groupings and hitting the target where you want to hit it however there are a bunch of other more specialised drills for training reaction speed and ability to actually perform at a moments notice.

While your initial drills start out using relatively few rounds at a time, more complex/difficult drills involve far more rounds, often requiring multiple magazines and multiple targets. These types of drills are generally aren't done at your basic indoor shooting galley ranges but even there there are plenty of ways to burn through a substantial amount of ammunition.

And while part of it is that in general shooting as a hobby is fun, another part is that some types of drills just require a lot of ammunition. ex: malfunction clearing drills where there are non-functional rounds mixed in to your magazines and you need to perform your drills with as little time loss compared to normal as possible. i.e. knowing how to react when things go wrong under pressure.

And so a single range day can easily put someone through tens of magazines which quickly gets into the hundreds of rounds. Then assuming you are going to the range weekly, biweekly, or monthly, that puts you into thousands or even tens of thousands of rounds per year.

gottorf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a recreational shooter, thousands of rounds is really not that much. I virtually never leave a range trip with fewer than a hundred rounds fired. And yes, for me, it's a combination of practice and fun ("plinking").

If ammunition didn't cost what it did, I'm sure I would shoot a lot more.

9x39 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Practicing until it’s muscle memory. Progressing through increased distances, smaller targets, more challenging conditions. Particularly in long-range shooting, dialing in hand loaded round configurations for accuracy and consistency.

I think it’s possible for many shooters to achieve parts of a flow state when doing this. Imagine the satisfaction of throwing, catching, or hitting balls over and over in muscle memory, letting your mind and body work together to let your coordination and accuracy improve to solve the puzzle.

koolba 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A thousand rounds is not that much. A standard box has 50 rounds, if you fire four boxes in a weekend, you can easily go through a thousand rounds over a month.

Now at $.25-.$30 / round, this does add up to an expensive hobby.

OrvalWintermute 2 days ago | parent [-]

It really depends on the weapon / type.

I’d estimate I have shot over 100K rounds of 7.62 thanks to a good amount of time as an M60/M240 Gunner

ungreased0675 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Imagine a driving range where a new ball was automatically teed up as soon as you hit the last one. It’d be really easy to keep hitting balls, trying to get the perfect most accurate shot, right? Then you’d want to hit three in a row, then five, then you realize you’ve been at the range for two hours and have spent way too much on ammo. That’s what recreational shooting is like.

harimau777 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's fairly common advice that if you are carrying for self defense then you should be firing at least 100 to 200 rounds a month at the range to maintain your skill. That's not all that difficult to do; especially with a relatively high capacity handgun like most 9mm.

TheAmazingRace 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You're absolutely correct. Part of why I have not been conceal carrying lately, is because I haven't prioritized consistent practice at the range in recent times. I want to ensure I'm proficient if I'm going to carry.

I should have clocked tens of thousands of rounds by now, at least one order of magnitude larger. Especially since micro-pistols like the P365 need the user to be more consistent with training, given that it's more difficult to be accurate with than with a full size gun. But life happens and I need to readjust my priorities before I get back to consistently visiting the range again.

Alupis 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

For additional perspective, you can easily blow through 200+ rounds in one sitting - often under an hour, depending on what kind of drills you are doing. Many of the courses I've taken require a minimum of 300 rounds.

This is part of why "gun people" roll their eyes when the news talks about someone "hoarding thousands of rounds" - it's no where near as much as you might think, and people like to buy ammo when it's on sale (ammo's expensive!).

twalla 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Like anything you want to become proficient at, you need consistent practice. How many free throws do you think LeBron has practiced? Now imagine you die if you miss. Also it’s fun to blast stuff.

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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dankwizard 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

i liberate a LOT of places

rdl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am mostly a P365 carrier/shooter now, but for a couple years a P320 Compact was my primary handgun (with an X5 P226 SAO for competition); I put probably 15-20k rounds through the P320 (1k round classes, etc, back when ammo was $150-180/case) (and never got the drop-safe mod done), and no problems. So it's some combination of QC, specific units, and bad luck -- but even a 0.001% risk of something happening is a big deal.

The quick P250 -> P320 without really designing it properly does seem to have been a mistake, though.

giantg2 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why would it be crazy when they're completely separate systems?

kstrauser 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

All I know about this situation is what I've read in these comments just now. I don't have a dog in this hunt.

But I think the surprise is that a company who makes something considered highly reliable would make a similar item that the Air Force claims is killing their airmen. It'd be like Toyota making another pickup, the Bellevue, that likes to randomly explode. Sure, things happen, but Toyota? Huh, that would be unexpected.

int_19h 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

With SIG USA specifically there's a long track record of making firearms that can only be described as problematic. For example, their attempt to adapt SG 55x to the American market - all versions had some issues, but especially so the ones chambered in 7.62x39.

The unusual thing here is that this is a problem in a product that managed to pass US DoD acceptance testing. But the drop safety issue was already known at the time, so one has to wonder just how much in soft bribes SIG had to spend to get it adopted regardless.

SilasX 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not sure that's the best example, since Toyota did have the unintended acceleration issue, though I still don't get whether the consensus among smart people was that it was purely user error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932011_Toyota_vehic...

rconti 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, the new Toyota Tundra seems to have lots of problems with its V8, and I'm not sure people call that _crazy_.

d0gsg0w00f 2 days ago | parent [-]

You must mean 2021 Tundras. 2022 and up are twin turbo V6 only.

giantg2 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ford made the Pinto. The Volt or Bolt from GM had battery fires. I believe Tesla has had multiple safety and quality issues come up.

kgermino 2 days ago | parent [-]

May be my age, but I wouldn't say any of those brands are a mark of quality. Rather the opposite in fact.

They are all interesting in their own way (especially Tesla), but certainly not quality/reliability-first organizations.

giantg2 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Is any mass produced car made by a quality first org? I'm sure we can dig in and find examples. Someone brought up Toyota and Japanese cars. How about the unintended acceleration issue and the frag airbags?

kgermino 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don’t know where we’d draw the line for “quality first” but I’d argue Toyota at minimum qualifies

That doesn’t mean they’re perfect: cars are incredibly complex machines and mistakes are inevitable. But the airbag issue was a vendor (used by many companies) and IIRC the acceleration issue wasn’t that much bigger in Toyotas than other makes

giantg2 2 days ago | parent [-]

There were no reports of the unintentional acceleration in other makes.

hn_acc1 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Too young for the major news headlines about Audi?

giantg2 2 days ago | parent [-]

True, I was considering the same timeframe as the Toyota issue. However, their reputation would likely be supportive of quality and be another example for my point.

kgermino 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What? Unintended acceleration happens _all the time_. It’s usually driver error or a stuck floor mat. The vast majority are drivers who hit the accelerator thinking it’s the brakes then panic when the car speeds up. Toyota had some design issues that seemed to make it more likely (though the software was found to be fine) and got attention due to a viral 911 call and a poor response.

They were absolutely not the only make with unintentional accretion reports/issues at that time; nor presumably today, but I haven’t seen recent numbers

giantg2 2 days ago | parent [-]

Fine, let me be more specific - unintended acceleration due to mechanical design issues (sticking pedal, even without floor mats). The point is, Toyota was raised as an example of quality, yet here we have a design issue. This also shouldn't be a surprise since the floor mat issue can be solved by design changes sound on other vehicles. So yes, manufacturers can make good and bad products. There are no manufactures who make only perfect products - it's not a surprise the P320 could have issues when the poster holds the P365 in such high esteem. The only thing that statement really displays is the suppression of cognitive dissonance being suddenly unachievable.

andrewmcwatters 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ford, GM, and Tesla are all bottom barrel automakers. All three of them relying on the government to prop them up, too. Otherwise, the Japanese market would have obliterated the American automotive industry ages ago.

umeshunni 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Otherwise, the Japanese market would have obliterated the American automotive industry ages ago

Or the Chinese in the last 5 years like they have done in Europe and rest of the world.

andrewmcwatters 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, I feel like BYD would kill Tesla if they sold cars here.

lenerdenator 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Usually, when a company makes something good, the things they make that are similar to that thing are also good.

Conceptually, the P365 and the P320 are very similar. Semiautomatic, striker-fired, polymer-framed, tilting-barrel centerfire pistols with replaceable serialized fire control modules. One's just bigger than the other. The guts of it are what changed, and you wouldn't think it'd be too hard to implement the P365's striker system within a larger pistol.

giantg2 2 days ago | parent [-]

The fact that it's smaller changes two important factors for trigger systems - mass and geometry. Geometric differences for things like sear engagement or even travel of the striker before encountering the block can change how it functions. Mass is another critical element when it comes to dropping it and how the parts could move to release the striker, etc. These are the types of changes they tried to implement in the FCU update for the P320. The P365 is a completely different design for the FCU anyways. For all we know the fatal difference could be that the stamped housing for the P320 FCU flexes in a certain way to trigger the disconnect while the P365 is machined and doesn't flex as much or in the same way. Whether or not something like that would scale without affecting the desired weight or dimensions, I dont know. It certainly would affect price for larger stainless billet and more machining.

paradox460 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I got my wife the 365SAS, and liked it enough to get one for myself. It's so good for CC, and holds reasonable accuracy out to 15 yrds