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stillpointlab 2 days ago

Something you hear often in the jazz community, especially from experienced pros is "everything you need to know about theory is in the songs".

It is usually in response to newcomers thinking they need to learn everything about every scale, every mode, every chord. They ask questions like "what scale should I play over this chord" or they get in really deep into some obscure theory thinking. I see it all the time with posts, even here on HN, where someone says "I figured out music!" and then you get some dry 1000 word essay on harmonic overtone series, and the maths of intervallic relationships.

But all of that intellectualization is replaceable and improved upon by learning a massive number of songs. Not just chord progressions, not just melodies in isolation, but beginning to end tunes. I was watching a live stream by industry veteran Jimmy Bruno and he was asked how many songs he knew and could play mostly from memory and he pondered for a minute and said "probably 2000".

gooseyard 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I've struggled to teach this to jazz students, I know when I was a kid I read the same kind of advice in guitar magazines, and while I don't think that the theory-first advocates are malevolent, I think most of them were not serious jazz players and were getting paid to deliver a monthly column.

The analogy I've tried to use in teaching is that learning to play jazz is like being a comedian; when your skills are at their peak you're going to be inventing jokes regularly, but in the decades before you get there, you're going to be delivering other people's jokes putting a little of your own spin on them. The delivery matters a lot, and like good jazz playing it's pretty much impossible to write a book called "How to be Funny" that wouldn't just be an academic analysis rather than an instructional guide.

I struggled with jazz for the reasons I've alluded to above, and it wasn't until I started studying with a teacher who just had me memorize hundreds of standards that I got my playing together. We definitely talked about the technical bits of what was happening in the tunes, but those were really just interesting observations; repeatedly playing them in a group setting after woodshedding them at home between lessons, then taking a lot of solos was really what made it happen.

It really makes me happy to see up-and-coming killer players like Patrick Bartley espousing this same approach. Yeah it means you're going to spend thousands of hours memorizing tunes, but if that's not fun then playing jazz isn't going to be fun either.

stillpointlab 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

As I alluded to in another comment, you are fighting upstream against the dominant Western conception of learning. But any musician I have ever met worth their salt knows the importance of learning songs and transcribing their favorite artists.

I think one of the causes is that some people struggle for years with music and then one day they learn a bit of theory and they experience a moment of enlightenment. Suddenly, all of their confusion is dispelled and what was once difficult is clear as day. They then think "if I had only know this years ago I wouldn't have struggled!". But they are wrong. It was the years of struggle that helped them understand the theory, not the other way around.

It's the "wax on, wax off" of Karate Kid and the wise old Mr. Miyagi.

I read a music theory book from the 1800s and in the first chapter the author stated that while he endeavored to write useful theory to help students they must realize that if some composition they write follows all of his rules but sounds bad, it is bad. And if they write a composition that breaks his rules but it sounds good then it is good. These are old, old ideas that we re-learn over and over.

lc9er a day ago | parent [-]

I’ve played mostly hard rock and metal, and am often the only band member with actual music theory knowledge (as the drummer, no less!). I’ve watched a number of bandmates resist learning any music theory because, “I don’t want to have to play by the rules” - as if they were some 16th century court composer.

Inevitably, they end up reinventing the wheel, in order to understand music they learn or write and then share with other musicians.

I think one thing that gets lost is that beyond being rules (more like observations these days) about how to write music, music theory is also a language that allows you to communicate with other musicians.

cousin_it 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Good analogy. There's a flip side to it though. You can be a great comedian on the level of individual jokes, or short bits, but be unable to write a story. And you can be a great jazz musician when it comes to soloing, but be unable to write a song. Stan Getz was a famous example. So yeah, learning jazz by imitation and immersion (as one learns a language) is very cool: learning these hundreds of songs will most certainly teach you how to solo. But it won't teach you how to make a song. Not nearly as reliably. It needs something else, I don't know what.

gooseyard 15 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't know quite what it is either, but I do know with certainty because it was my own experience that the act of inventing songs doesn't require any kind of experience at all, as some of my earliest memories as a child were riding in a car with a radio playing in the background, having some melody occur to me, and then being unable to get it out of my head. They weren't novel because they wouldn't have come to me had I not been idly listening to a lot of music, but neither were they just a slight variation on what I had been listening to.

I am by no means a prolific or genius songwriter, nobody would know any of my music, and I don't believe that any of it is particularly impressive. However I've always found the fact that it happened spontaneously way to be a source of wonder, and as I've aged as a musician its delightful to see the endless stream of new songs and that it doesn't seem to matter whether you're a prodigy when it comes to writing songs that impact listeners. It seems to be a fundamental aspect of the human experience.

poulpy123 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Something you hear often in the jazz community, especially from experienced pros is "everything you need to know about theory is in the songs".

The advice of just listen/play music that I often read is imho a bad advice. You would not give people data about orbits and expect them to discover by themselves newton's law without never teaching the laws.

Of course music theory is not a scientific theory, and not only theory by itself is not enough (in both cases) but too much theory before practice is bad. And of course listening and practicing a lot of music is extremely important.

But who is going to progress faster: the student that knows what a chord is and how they are built or the student that is just listening to music ?

ACCount36 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The same applies to learning languages.

You can learn a lot from textbooks... or you can use textbooks to give you the absolute bare minimum, and then just use the language itself repeatedly.

stillpointlab 2 days ago | parent [-]

I think the idea is very deep and applicable to many aspects of life.

Learning grammar, vocabulary, semantics, etc. is definitely valuable. But immersing yourself in a culture where the language is spoken, listening how it is used in practice, speaking it yourself with a native, that is a truly powerful way to learn the language.

I'm not religious but I am reminded about a story where Jesus was challenged about his disciples picking some wheat on the Sabbath, breaking a law. The Pharisees demand an answer and Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He was pointing out the inverted relationship and the corruption that results.

The same can happen with music, programming, language learning, etc.

Another analogy most people will recognize: the map vs. the territory. Music theory is the map, the songs are the territory. No matter how much you study the map you will benefit tremendously from walking the territory.

wredcoll 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is an interesting thought. I've been learning how to paint some things and there are a lot of youtube tutorials where someone paints a thing and tells you how to do each step, but my issue is always "what if I want to change something?".

I feel like if I don't know why they chose to do a specific thing, I won't know how to properly alter it.

poulpy123 a day ago | parent | next [-]

If there is no why it's not a theory but a recipe. The why can be as simple as most people like/dislike it, but it needs to exist and it needs to be testable.

Note that recipes are actually useful, it's just that they are not theory.

> "what if I want to change something?" It's indeed an essential step of learning and creating

somethingsome 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's because you aim for a false objective!

There is no a 'proper' way to do it! It goes like this, you change it, if it looks good, well, good job, if not, ask yourself why, and try your best to take that into account next time.

It's by doing millions of small mistakes that you improve. The teacher teaches one way that is kinda easy to grasp, it's not the only way and far from unique.

The further you go, the further you will see the same mistakes, and you will start to think in terms of volumes, shapes, shadows, perspective, even anatomy if you still struggle on some human body parts

stillpointlab 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a common feeling, and it is in some respect related to western culture. We prize "knowledge" very highly because it is demonstrably effective.

My comment isn't meant to devalue knowledge but to put it in relation to "something else". That something else is the thing you have knowledge about. The thing to appreciate is that you can become an expert on knowledge itself, without ever becoming expert in the thing the knowledge is about.

Consider some painting theory topics: color theory, contrast, perspective, proportion, etc. Imagine someone who attains expert level knowledge of any one (or combination) of these subjects but they are still unable to draw a picture that is a pleasing representation of their subject. You can easily study all of these topics for a lifetime without every picking up a pencil or a brush.

My other comment mentions the map vs. territory distinction. So let's deeply consider this. You are in unfamiliar territory and you feel lost. You think to yourself: "If I only had a map then I wouldn't feel so lost". But does that mean you should spend the rest of your life studying map making? An alternative is to survey the territory with your own eyes and learn to pick out the trails that many others have cut into the wild. And then follow some of those trails. You might end up at a dead end and have to turn back to a previous fork in the road. You may find yourself scratched up as you try to get through dense thickets, or bogged down up to your shins in a swamp. Those are the kinds of experiences that teach you the land in a way no map could ever. And they are experiences you can't get by sitting in a tent studying a map. If your goal is to find a new trail through the territory - no map will even show it. That will only come from the hard won experience of trekking relentlessly through the wild.

As the philosopher Mike Tyson once said: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". It sucks getting punched in the face by other people, by learning a new language, learning to paint, learning music. Some people avoid it at all costs, thinking that studying the theory is the same thing.

Just remember that all of the scratches and bruises you are getting as you fail at painting are scratches on your ego. It can take it. You will get better, as long as you keep trying it is inevitable you will learn. And it is very useful to glance at a map now and again. Just don't get too reliant on it.

analog31 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've played jazz for about 45 years, and admittedly I'm not steeped in theory. I do know a massive number of tunes.

The people I've known who have made practical use of theory, mainly used it to help them streamline composition and arrangement. This I appreciate because I enjoy playing original material. Of course theory isn't telling them what to write, but perhaps it helps them come up with more coherent ideas more quickly.

dwd a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are Jazz Standards which people have tried to incorporate into various books and lists of what songs you should know to effectively play in a group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_jazz_standards

Levitz 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You do need some theory in there though, no? I mean guitarrists paying no attention to theory only to have eureka moments with sort of basic stuff is pretty much a meme at this point.

stillpointlab 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's about not putting the cart before the horse. Theory is a guide to the songs, not a set of rules to be mastered in isolation.

In philosophy there is a test of necessity and sufficiency. Theory is definitely not sufficient to become a proficient musician (let alone a composer). I think it is arguable whether or not it is necessary (I would argue not and handwave towards the list of musicians who are literal legends despite 0 theory). So as a strict answer to your question: maybe not.

However, practically, learning some theory is obviously beneficial to many learners and can speed up the process of acquiring the skill. But again, beware of cart before horse.

Take one famous legend who is infamous for his insistence he know no theory: B.B. King. I mean, anyone who analyses his music can point out a laundry list of complicated theoretical things he is doing in his playing. He just doesn't know the "book names" for it since he learned those things in a different way. He definitely know what a "6" chord is, when to use it, what scales to use with it, etc. But if you asked him to explain it to you he'd probably show you 4 or 5 songs instead of writing you an essay.

wsintra2022 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Even if it may be a meme, those eureka moments are exactly the thing these threads are describing; learning knowledge about a thing. I’d rather have a thousand hours of eureka moments than a 1000 hours with a textbook of theory

1123581321 a day ago | parent [-]

That isn’t the choice. You only need maybe 20-50 hours of theory and anyone learning music will accumulate at least a few thousand hours of playtime if they stick with it. The order in which you do those matters a lot though. It differs depending on the age you start playing. Most adults should learn theory early, but not before they’ve done enough beginner to be able to practice theory as they learn it.

(Obviously you can study music more than 50 hours. I’m just talking about the applied theory most expert musicians know.)